6 ms·

Coming from Russia doesn't mean you agree with government policy. If you saw people get arrested as soon as they start protesting, what would you do?

f6v 4y ago
They might as well agree with it. Or agree with some of it. It just strikes me how everyone wants to put everyone else into these well-defined black-and-white boxes. I get that it’s simpler, but it’s often at odds with reality.
- FpUser 4y ago
  >"It just strikes me how everyone ..." Because most of those "everyone's" are not facing the choices themselves and are basically keyboard warriors. Let's see what they say when they'll be asked to sacrifice their own well being to be on a "high moral ground".
  - 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
    I think we're already seeing that in recent French elections. I have a feeling this is only the beginning. As a relatively neutral party in all of this whose country hasn't tainted itself (but who nevertheless spent all my live under a similar autocracy), I can't help but shake my head at keyboard revolutionaries who definitely would have overthrown the regime, if only they lived in Russia. You just have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Guard your democracy as best you can so you don't have to find out.
    - danuker 4y ago
      > Guard your democracy as best you can If you look at Snowden and Assange, that ship has sailed.
artemonster 4y ago
But as a company, they do. They are filtering alternative media from their search.
- hnechochamber2 4y ago
  Not much they can do if the alternative is go to jail.
- guerrilla 4y ago
  They're just following the law of their host country, like DuckDuckGo and Google have to... What's the alternative? Open rebellion against the state?
  - chupasaurus 4y ago
    They've started to do so before the law was adjusted
    - guerrilla 4y ago
      Like Facebook, Twitter and every other forum did? I wonder if there were any consequences if they didn't.
      - lotusmars 4y ago
        No, they just removed all but pro-Putin or state media out of Yandex News. It's just only pro-war Kremlin propaganda now.
      - chupasaurus 4y ago
        Basically they've taken a step further with censorship of all media not controlled by government which at the time (2014) couldn't been penalized whatsoever.
        guerrilla 4y ago
        And what if they hadn't?
Thorentis 4y ago
Doesn't mean you can't be punished for the actions of the government though. See: Western companies and government pulling out of Russia or issuing sanctions on private individuals. I think it's even worse to say "we don't think you're guilty, but we do think you should be punished."
- baxtr 4y ago
  "We want to punish you" and "We don't want to make business with you" are two very different things IMHO.
  - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
    If you go out of your way to not do business with someone, in order to cripple them economically, then it is a punishment.
    - baxtr 4y ago
      If you want to define punishment like that, it is your call. In my opinion it is not punishment to stop a relationship if the basis of that relationship was destroyed deliberately by one side.
      - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
        I don't define it, it's exactly the official definition, like it or not: > punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence. Then you can play all you want with language to make it say what you'd like but it's pointless.
        baxtr 4y ago
        An "offence" as defined in a criminal code? Two countries don't share a criminal code AFAIK.
        4y ago
egorfine 4y ago
I am asking this question myself for 120 days and I still don't have an answer.
- lotusmars 4y ago
  Maybe not be "apolitical" for 20 years that led to this? Russian IT and media were showered with relatively high wages to stay quiet while last semblance of elections was finally destroyed, independent media was took over by pro-Putin oligarchs and activists were crushed or murdered. As was the sarcastic saying coined recently, "if you are apolitical then bullets don't hit you".
vegai_ 4y ago
> If you saw people get arrested as soon as they start protesting, what would you do? Probably move if that's anywhere near a possibility, and if not, cowardly stay as unnoticeable as possible. I know that at least in Finland Russian refugees are mostly welcome (although the border might be closed right now), even if they probably will face a lot of scrutiny from various authorities for obvious reasons. Most certainly it's nothing like the attention such people would face in Russia. We fondly remember even the smallest acts of defiance that ordinary Germans acted out against their regime during 1933-1945. We all would like to be those people in times of crisis, but obviously most of us are not. They were probably ultimately pretty futile acts during that time, though, but put together with all the other actions that happened against the Nazis played a significant grander role. And we know that more than a few significant Jewish scientists and engineers fled from Nazi Germany and made significant contributions to the war effort. For instance, one guy called Einstein.
- martin_a 4y ago
  It would probably fit better to compare "small actions" to the people of the DDR which were protesting against their regime and ultimately helped to bring it down.
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  Move where, exactly? I have a few friends in Russia and they sit on their asses because there's nowhere for them to go. You don't exactly qualify as a refugee unless the state is after you (which you can trigger very easily, but then you may not be able to leave the country), and even then it's not a given.
lotusmars 4y ago
Yandex is arguably the biggest censoring and propaganda machine in Russia. Yandex News is IIRC the biggest news media in Russia. It filtered all results on protests and opposition resources leaving only government propaganda. Same with war. Filtering not meaning downranking. Just straight up not showing. Editors were fired for not staying in line until it was completely sterilized and filled with pro-war propaganda. Working in Yandex is being complicit with it.
varispeed 4y ago
This is a stupid argument. Ukrainians are being killed and you compare that to fear of being arrested? It's a nice excuse. "Oh yes I don't support my government, but you know these arrests, I'd rather stay in my cosy home and enjoy my tea. Now could you please lift the sanctions? I already said I don't support my government, why normal people like me should suffer?" etc etc
- FpUser 4y ago
  >""Oh yes I don't support my government, but you know these arrests, I'd rather stay in my cosy home and enjoy my tea." Why are you so surprised? This is exactly how most of the population behaves everywhere. People go about their business and "support" criminal actions of their governments all the time. This includes the West. Our governments have no problems exterminating, starving and displacing people (as long as they're the "right" people to mess with) while the majority of the population is going on merrily about their business. And Europe keeps buying Russian stuff even now while "Ukrainians are being killed". Where are the mass protests and fights with the police? Things might change when "messing" with people will ALWAYS have the consequences for ANY country. But this is not what is happening and is unlikely to change. We have no extra terrestrial entity to police us in impartial way.
  - lotusmars 4y ago
    > Our governments have no problems exterminating, starving and displacing people It's high time to bring "but US bombed Iraq". Classic playbook.
    - dmpk2k 4y ago
      And yet it is still true.
      - lotusmars 4y ago
        Americans just love to talk about themselves. Who cares about Russians under Putin's oppression or Ukrainians being exterminated. Let's talk about your government, Bush, Trump and Google.
Svoka 4y ago
Every russian citizen pays for death and destruction in Ukraine. With taxes, with national wealth. What should russians do you ask? Fight. I did it in Ukraine in 2004. Then in 2014. I didn't run from cops, I didn't let them take my friends. But regardless, now we pay with our lives, being subjected to genocide because of russian cowardliness. because so far they are all just paying for the genocide.

f6v 4y ago

They might as well agree with it. Or agree with some of it. It just strikes me how everyone wants to put everyone else into these well-defined black-and-white boxes. I get that it’s simpler, but it’s often at odds with reality.

FpUser 4y ago
>"It just strikes me how everyone ..." Because most of those "everyone's" are not facing the choices themselves and are basically keyboard warriors. Let's see what they say when they'll be asked to sacrifice their own well being to be on a "high moral ground".
- 5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
  I think we're already seeing that in recent French elections. I have a feeling this is only the beginning. As a relatively neutral party in all of this whose country hasn't tainted itself (but who nevertheless spent all my live under a similar autocracy), I can't help but shake my head at keyboard revolutionaries who definitely would have overthrown the regime, if only they lived in Russia. You just have no freaking idea what you're talking about. Guard your democracy as best you can so you don't have to find out.
  - danuker 4y ago
    > Guard your democracy as best you can If you look at Snowden and Assange, that ship has sailed.

artemonster 4y ago

But as a company, they do. They are filtering alternative media from their search.

hnechochamber2 4y ago
Not much they can do if the alternative is go to jail.
guerrilla 4y ago
They're just following the law of their host country, like DuckDuckGo and Google have to... What's the alternative? Open rebellion against the state?
- chupasaurus 4y ago
  They've started to do so before the law was adjusted
  - guerrilla 4y ago
    Like Facebook, Twitter and every other forum did? I wonder if there were any consequences if they didn't.
    - lotusmars 4y ago
      No, they just removed all but pro-Putin or state media out of Yandex News. It's just only pro-war Kremlin propaganda now.
    - chupasaurus 4y ago
      Basically they've taken a step further with censorship of all media not controlled by government which at the time (2014) couldn't been penalized whatsoever.
      - guerrilla 4y ago
        And what if they hadn't?

Thorentis 4y ago

Doesn't mean you can't be punished for the actions of the government though. See: Western companies and government pulling out of Russia or issuing sanctions on private individuals. I think it's even worse to say "we don't think you're guilty, but we do think you should be punished."

baxtr 4y ago
"We want to punish you" and "We don't want to make business with you" are two very different things IMHO.
- pastacacioepepe 4y ago
  If you go out of your way to not do business with someone, in order to cripple them economically, then it is a punishment.
  - baxtr 4y ago
    If you want to define punishment like that, it is your call. In my opinion it is not punishment to stop a relationship if the basis of that relationship was destroyed deliberately by one side.
    - pastacacioepepe 4y ago
      I don't define it, it's exactly the official definition, like it or not: > punishment: the infliction or imposition of a penalty as retribution for an offence. Then you can play all you want with language to make it say what you'd like but it's pointless.
      - baxtr 4y ago
        An "offence" as defined in a criminal code? Two countries don't share a criminal code AFAIK.
        4y ago

egorfine 4y ago

I am asking this question myself for 120 days and I still don't have an answer.

lotusmars 4y ago
Maybe not be "apolitical" for 20 years that led to this? Russian IT and media were showered with relatively high wages to stay quiet while last semblance of elections was finally destroyed, independent media was took over by pro-Putin oligarchs and activists were crushed or murdered. As was the sarcastic saying coined recently, "if you are apolitical then bullets don't hit you".

vegai_ 4y ago

> If you saw people get arrested as soon as they start protesting, what would you do? Probably move if that's anywhere near a possibility, and if not, cowardly stay as unnoticeable as possible. I know that at least in Finland Russian refugees are mostly welcome (although the border might be closed right now), even if they probably will face a lot of scrutiny from various authorities for obvious reasons. Most certainly it's nothing like the attention such people would face in Russia. We fondly remember even the smallest acts of defiance that ordinary Germans acted out against their regime during 1933-1945. We all would like to be those people in times of crisis, but obviously most of us are not. They were probably ultimately pretty futile acts during that time, though, but put together with all the other actions that happened against the Nazis played a significant grander role. And we know that more than a few significant Jewish scientists and engineers fled from Nazi Germany and made significant contributions to the war effort. For instance, one guy called Einstein.

martin_a 4y ago
It would probably fit better to compare "small actions" to the people of the DDR which were protesting against their regime and ultimately helped to bring it down.
5e92cb50239222b 4y ago
Move where, exactly? I have a few friends in Russia and they sit on their asses because there's nowhere for them to go. You don't exactly qualify as a refugee unless the state is after you (which you can trigger very easily, but then you may not be able to leave the country), and even then it's not a given.

lotusmars 4y ago

Yandex is arguably the biggest censoring and propaganda machine in Russia. Yandex News is IIRC the biggest news media in Russia. It filtered all results on protests and opposition resources leaving only government propaganda. Same with war. Filtering not meaning downranking. Just straight up not showing. Editors were fired for not staying in line until it was completely sterilized and filled with pro-war propaganda. Working in Yandex is being complicit with it.

varispeed 4y ago

This is a stupid argument. Ukrainians are being killed and you compare that to fear of being arrested? It's a nice excuse. "Oh yes I don't support my government, but you know these arrests, I'd rather stay in my cosy home and enjoy my tea. Now could you please lift the sanctions? I already said I don't support my government, why normal people like me should suffer?" etc etc

FpUser 4y ago
>""Oh yes I don't support my government, but you know these arrests, I'd rather stay in my cosy home and enjoy my tea." Why are you so surprised? This is exactly how most of the population behaves everywhere. People go about their business and "support" criminal actions of their governments all the time. This includes the West. Our governments have no problems exterminating, starving and displacing people (as long as they're the "right" people to mess with) while the majority of the population is going on merrily about their business. And Europe keeps buying Russian stuff even now while "Ukrainians are being killed". Where are the mass protests and fights with the police? Things might change when "messing" with people will ALWAYS have the consequences for ANY country. But this is not what is happening and is unlikely to change. We have no extra terrestrial entity to police us in impartial way.
- lotusmars 4y ago
  > Our governments have no problems exterminating, starving and displacing people It's high time to bring "but US bombed Iraq". Classic playbook.
  - dmpk2k 4y ago
    And yet it is still true.
    - lotusmars 4y ago
      Americans just love to talk about themselves. Who cares about Russians under Putin's oppression or Ukrainians being exterminated. Let's talk about your government, Bush, Trump and Google.

Svoka 4y ago

Every russian citizen pays for death and destruction in Ukraine. With taxes, with national wealth. What should russians do you ask? Fight. I did it in Ukraine in 2004. Then in 2014. I didn't run from cops, I didn't let them take my friends. But regardless, now we pay with our lives, being subjected to genocide because of russian cowardliness. because so far they are all just paying for the genocide.