5 ms·

> A common answer I received was: "I love the push for equal opportunities for men and women, but I desire [traditional gender role] and I dislike having to jus

> A common answer I received was: "I love the push for equal opportunities for men and women, but I desire [traditional gender role] and I dislike having to justify it to myself." I always found this interesting. Do they think that it's not an option anymore? That's like saying "look, I get that left-handed people should have equal opportunities, but I'm right handed." Why is the option of something else treated as a threat? Is it a form of projection, the fear that it will somehow become illegal to be traditional, because they themselves have been extremely hostile to the nontraditional?

anonporridge 4y ago
"To the privileged, equality feels like oppression."
- robmerki 4y ago
  This is a low effort "gotcha" way of dismissing the real feelings of humans who are struggling to reconcile their deeply held desires with what they perceive in media.
  - esrauch 4y ago
    This seems like a weird case though, because you don't need to look far at all to find "traditional" family structures in media, almost all depictions of stay at home moms is positive, with tons of media depicting stay at home mom as the "toughest job". It seems possible that that condition is backlash against representation, and that people do get real feelings of struggle in response to their preferred lifestyle not being the only one depicted anymore. Feelings can be real and philosophically problematic, and even contrary to ones consciously held beliefs.
  - streamlining 4y ago
    Yes, let's all offer our deepest thoughts and prays to these individuals enduring this terrible imaginary plight.
  - chowchowchow 4y ago
    “With what they perceive in media.” I notice even in defense you say their threats are “perceived”.
  - subjectsigma 4y ago
    I have met several LGBT people who refer to heterosexual people by perjoratives like "the straights" and "cis scum" and openly mock things like traditional marriage ceremonies. Like, in real conversations. To people's faces. Unsurprisingly, straight people do not like this. People do not step back and say, "Gee, this person has clearly had some bad experiences that made them this much of a snarky asshole. Overall heterosexual people are not persecuted and homosexual people often are, so I shouldn't feel like my way of life is under existential threat. These verbal jabs can't really hurt me." Nobody thinks like this. They just get mad. Now is this scenario really relevant to actual discussion of what "equality" and "oppression" mean? Not really. But on the Internet we very quickly reach the lowest common denominator of discussion.
    - streamlining 4y ago
      > I have met several LGBT people who refer to heterosexual people by perjoratives like "the straights" and "cis scum" and openly mock things like traditional marriage ceremonies. Like, in real conversations. To people's faces. And a gay person has probably encountered thousands of people that have attitudes like that toward their sexuality... I really don't know what your point is. I went to a well-known hippie college and knew people that were gender studies majors, LGBT, etc., and none of them resemble your characterization.
      - subjectsigma 4y ago
        Regarding the grandparent comment: > "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression." My point is that the quote is accurate, but in an upside-down-and-backwards way. The privileged, by and large, aren't sitting around in country clubs smoking fat cigars and complaining about how they now have to tolerate degenerates. They are everyday people who now have to deal with new ideas they don't understand and might not like, especially if the people presenting them are actively antagonistic about it. Even though feeling oppressed != being oppressed, it's easy to understand how that could feel oppressive, and could prompt backlash. Hence the parent comment: > This is a low effort "gotcha" way of dismissing the real feelings of humans who are struggling to reconcile their deeply held desires with what they perceive in media. --- A personal example: I have no problem with gay people. There was a thread about polyamory posted a while back, though. I absolutely hate the idea and I find I don't get along with people who subscribe to it. I have trouble reconciling my belief that people, politically and socially, should be mostly free to do whatever they want, with the fact that I think polyamory is just gross and a bad idea. The few people in the polyamory community I have met didn't, uh, make this any easier.
robmerki 4y ago
This is a good question to add to my survey. My suspicion is that these women feel as though their desired gender role(s) are being ignored or dismissed by media. The only quote I have on this subject: "If all you see on TV and the internet is successful women CEOs being celebrated, you start to feel like that's the only way to be correctly feminine." Several of my interviews veered into this territory, but I regret not pressing more into these feelings.
- ZeroGravitas 4y ago
  > If all you see on TV and the internet is successful women CEOs being celebrated, you start to feel like that's the only way to be correctly feminine." That's an extremely weird media bubble they are in. One that I'm not sure exists outside their imagination.
- dragonwriter 4y ago
  > “If all you see on TV and the internet is successful women CEOs being celebrated, you start to feel like that’s the only way to be correctly feminine.” Unless you specifically and actively filter for such content, you aren’t going to end up with that as all you see. And even if you try to, I’m not sure you can, because there are very few properties that celebrate that way of being feminine exclusively, though there are plenty that include it. This seems like a very contrived concern.
dionidium 4y ago
I have to say, I find this sentiment confusing and unimaginative. Progressives never stop talking about all the subtle impediments to progress felt by marginalized groups -- microaggressions, stereotype threat, not seeing people who look like you in positions of power, what it's like to hold beliefs not shared by the dominant culture, etc, etc. But then they express disbelief when a member of a group they've deemed to be "powerful" responds similarly to cultural messaging. If you're a slightly conservative/traditional person in a university or even just a major U.S. city, you're going to be bombarded with messaging that implies non-traditional choices should be exalted and that your traditional choices should at least be viewed with suspicion. Progressives of all people should understand why that might result in someone with traditional beliefs internalizing the notion that their choices are bad. "We're not saying your choices are bad, we're just saying over and over and over again that the other choices are good." We're told that depictions of minorities in media can have powerful, life-altering effects, but when every commercial depicts dads as bumbling idiots and family life as chaotic and undesirable [0], suddenly there are no conceivable implications? It's all pretty straightforward if you just take your own arguments seriously (and remember that individuals experience the world as individuals, even if they're part of some group you perceive to be privileged). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kEYp6OY7BI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kEYp6OY7BI
- phailhaus 4y ago
  > "We're not saying your choices are bad, we're just saying over and over and over again that the other choices are good." I think if anyone is being honest with themselves, this is not a threat. "Traditional choices" are still strongly represented in popular (liberal) media as the implicit default, and is still by far the "social default." Nobody gets ostracized for becoming a stay-at-home mom, and the breadwinner dad never has to explain themselves. I think we should be asking who is peddling the narrative that this is a "plot" to destroy their identity, and who gains. It is extremely effective at creating political unity. It is hard to argue that "progressive media has gone too far", when the Texas GOP literally just declared homosexuality as abnormal as a part of their official platform. Traditionalism still rules.
- mcphage 4y ago
  > but when every commercial depicts dads as bumbling idiots and family life as chaotic and undesirable [0], suddenly there are no conceivable implications? “Dads are numbing idiots” and “family life is chaotic and undesirable” are not progressive messages at all in any way, shape, or form. I agree with you, they’re terrible, and I hate them. But I think they’re the last remnants of Al Bundy era baby boomer “I hate my wife and my kids” messaging. For an actual progressive take on dads and family life, check out the kids show Bluey.
majormajor 4y ago
In this case I could see a case where it could seem directly threatening: the more men that express wanting to be provided for, instead of working, the smaller the pool of potential partners for them. Traditionally, expressing that or acting on it would be a big social/reputational risk for a man. Whether or not that's really true - "anyone who's going to be miserable because they're working full time and you don't isn't right for you" or somesuch - I could certainly see people feeling like it impacts them. It might feel like "oh, being a woman still has these other disadvantages that aren't fully eliminated, and now you're wanting me to give up something I see as one of the advantages in exchange for nothing."
golergka 4y ago
Oh may be they have felt societal pressure not to follow this traditional gender role?
ip26 4y ago
The push for equal opportunities tends to cast the traditional roles in a subtly negative light.
touisteur 4y ago
There's this thing on social media (and somewhat less strongly irl) of backlash when you're talking about your choices. Breastfeeding is a big no no on social media, it gets such angry backlash. Just saying you're seeing many advantages, and are happy doing it, brings out so many angry variations of 'well not everyone can do it'. I just feel it's good to put positive experiences out, 'you're shaming people that can't or have decided to bottlefeed' WTF? And don't get me started on angry women calling my wife names because she breastfed twins. Oh see the anger also when she did until they were 3 years old. I don't understand this anger especially when she's only saying 'it was great because x and y'. Same for staying at home with the kids and trying progressive parenting. The things she gets called... Why? She's doesn't even think of teaching or berating, she's just sharing her joy and all the positive stuff some life choices can bring... So much anger and and self-judgement out there.

anonporridge 4y ago

"To the privileged, equality feels like oppression."

robmerki 4y ago
This is a low effort "gotcha" way of dismissing the real feelings of humans who are struggling to reconcile their deeply held desires with what they perceive in media.
- esrauch 4y ago
  This seems like a weird case though, because you don't need to look far at all to find "traditional" family structures in media, almost all depictions of stay at home moms is positive, with tons of media depicting stay at home mom as the "toughest job". It seems possible that that condition is backlash against representation, and that people do get real feelings of struggle in response to their preferred lifestyle not being the only one depicted anymore. Feelings can be real and philosophically problematic, and even contrary to ones consciously held beliefs.
- streamlining 4y ago
  Yes, let's all offer our deepest thoughts and prays to these individuals enduring this terrible imaginary plight.
- chowchowchow 4y ago
  “With what they perceive in media.” I notice even in defense you say their threats are “perceived”.
- subjectsigma 4y ago
  I have met several LGBT people who refer to heterosexual people by perjoratives like "the straights" and "cis scum" and openly mock things like traditional marriage ceremonies. Like, in real conversations. To people's faces. Unsurprisingly, straight people do not like this. People do not step back and say, "Gee, this person has clearly had some bad experiences that made them this much of a snarky asshole. Overall heterosexual people are not persecuted and homosexual people often are, so I shouldn't feel like my way of life is under existential threat. These verbal jabs can't really hurt me." Nobody thinks like this. They just get mad. Now is this scenario really relevant to actual discussion of what "equality" and "oppression" mean? Not really. But on the Internet we very quickly reach the lowest common denominator of discussion.
  - streamlining 4y ago
    > I have met several LGBT people who refer to heterosexual people by perjoratives like "the straights" and "cis scum" and openly mock things like traditional marriage ceremonies. Like, in real conversations. To people's faces. And a gay person has probably encountered thousands of people that have attitudes like that toward their sexuality... I really don't know what your point is. I went to a well-known hippie college and knew people that were gender studies majors, LGBT, etc., and none of them resemble your characterization.
    - subjectsigma 4y ago
      Regarding the grandparent comment: > "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression." My point is that the quote is accurate, but in an upside-down-and-backwards way. The privileged, by and large, aren't sitting around in country clubs smoking fat cigars and complaining about how they now have to tolerate degenerates. They are everyday people who now have to deal with new ideas they don't understand and might not like, especially if the people presenting them are actively antagonistic about it. Even though feeling oppressed != being oppressed, it's easy to understand how that could feel oppressive, and could prompt backlash. Hence the parent comment: > This is a low effort "gotcha" way of dismissing the real feelings of humans who are struggling to reconcile their deeply held desires with what they perceive in media. --- A personal example: I have no problem with gay people. There was a thread about polyamory posted a while back, though. I absolutely hate the idea and I find I don't get along with people who subscribe to it. I have trouble reconciling my belief that people, politically and socially, should be mostly free to do whatever they want, with the fact that I think polyamory is just gross and a bad idea. The few people in the polyamory community I have met didn't, uh, make this any easier.

robmerki 4y ago

This is a good question to add to my survey. My suspicion is that these women feel as though their desired gender role(s) are being ignored or dismissed by media. The only quote I have on this subject: "If all you see on TV and the internet is successful women CEOs being celebrated, you start to feel like that's the only way to be correctly feminine." Several of my interviews veered into this territory, but I regret not pressing more into these feelings.

ZeroGravitas 4y ago
> If all you see on TV and the internet is successful women CEOs being celebrated, you start to feel like that's the only way to be correctly feminine." That's an extremely weird media bubble they are in. One that I'm not sure exists outside their imagination.
dragonwriter 4y ago
> “If all you see on TV and the internet is successful women CEOs being celebrated, you start to feel like that’s the only way to be correctly feminine.” Unless you specifically and actively filter for such content, you aren’t going to end up with that as all you see. And even if you try to, I’m not sure you can, because there are very few properties that celebrate that way of being feminine exclusively, though there are plenty that include it. This seems like a very contrived concern.

dionidium 4y ago

I have to say, I find this sentiment confusing and unimaginative. Progressives never stop talking about all the subtle impediments to progress felt by marginalized groups -- microaggressions, stereotype threat, not seeing people who look like you in positions of power, what it's like to hold beliefs not shared by the dominant culture, etc, etc. But then they express disbelief when a member of a group they've deemed to be "powerful" responds similarly to cultural messaging. If you're a slightly conservative/traditional person in a university or even just a major U.S. city, you're going to be bombarded with messaging that implies non-traditional choices should be exalted and that your traditional choices should at least be viewed with suspicion. Progressives of all people should understand why that might result in someone with traditional beliefs internalizing the notion that their choices are bad. "We're not saying your choices are bad, we're just saying over and over and over again that the other choices are good." We're told that depictions of minorities in media can have powerful, life-altering effects, but when every commercial depicts dads as bumbling idiots and family life as chaotic and undesirable [0], suddenly there are no conceivable implications? It's all pretty straightforward if you just take your own arguments seriously (and remember that individuals experience the world as individuals, even if they're part of some group you perceive to be privileged). [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kEYp6OY7BI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kEYp6OY7BI

phailhaus 4y ago
> "We're not saying your choices are bad, we're just saying over and over and over again that the other choices are good." I think if anyone is being honest with themselves, this is not a threat. "Traditional choices" are still strongly represented in popular (liberal) media as the implicit default, and is still by far the "social default." Nobody gets ostracized for becoming a stay-at-home mom, and the breadwinner dad never has to explain themselves. I think we should be asking who is peddling the narrative that this is a "plot" to destroy their identity, and who gains. It is extremely effective at creating political unity. It is hard to argue that "progressive media has gone too far", when the Texas GOP literally just declared homosexuality as abnormal as a part of their official platform. Traditionalism still rules.
mcphage 4y ago
> but when every commercial depicts dads as bumbling idiots and family life as chaotic and undesirable [0], suddenly there are no conceivable implications? “Dads are numbing idiots” and “family life is chaotic and undesirable” are not progressive messages at all in any way, shape, or form. I agree with you, they’re terrible, and I hate them. But I think they’re the last remnants of Al Bundy era baby boomer “I hate my wife and my kids” messaging. For an actual progressive take on dads and family life, check out the kids show Bluey.

majormajor 4y ago

In this case I could see a case where it could seem directly threatening: the more men that express wanting to be provided for, instead of working, the smaller the pool of potential partners for them. Traditionally, expressing that or acting on it would be a big social/reputational risk for a man. Whether or not that's really true - "anyone who's going to be miserable because they're working full time and you don't isn't right for you" or somesuch - I could certainly see people feeling like it impacts them. It might feel like "oh, being a woman still has these other disadvantages that aren't fully eliminated, and now you're wanting me to give up something I see as one of the advantages in exchange for nothing."

golergka 4y ago

Oh may be they have felt societal pressure not to follow this traditional gender role?

ip26 4y ago

The push for equal opportunities tends to cast the traditional roles in a subtly negative light.

touisteur 4y ago

There's this thing on social media (and somewhat less strongly irl) of backlash when you're talking about your choices. Breastfeeding is a big no no on social media, it gets such angry backlash. Just saying you're seeing many advantages, and are happy doing it, brings out so many angry variations of 'well not everyone can do it'. I just feel it's good to put positive experiences out, 'you're shaming people that can't or have decided to bottlefeed' WTF? And don't get me started on angry women calling my wife names because she breastfed twins. Oh see the anger also when she did until they were 3 years old. I don't understand this anger especially when she's only saying 'it was great because x and y'. Same for staying at home with the kids and trying progressive parenting. The things she gets called... Why? She's doesn't even think of teaching or berating, she's just sharing her joy and all the positive stuff some life choices can bring... So much anger and and self-judgement out there.