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I started interviewing people (across multiple different cities) for a new book I'm writing, and I'm shocked at how out of touch journalism has become. I expec

• mwint 4y ago
  Care to elaborate?
  • robmerki 4y ago
    Just edited my comment, happy to expand further if you want me to.
    • Shared404 4y ago
      > On issues of dating/love/gender roles, I found a far more traditional response from both men and women AND trans people. Slight nit in that (most) trans people would also fall under men and women. (Sorry to be that person, it's just something I've learned a lot about semi-recently.) Curious to hear an elaboration on the definition of "far more traditional response" - I can think of a few things that could mean, and some of them I would find surprising and some I wouldn't.
      • robmerki 4y ago
        Good catch, I corrected my comment. I'm writing about dating/love/relationships since I haven't been single as an adult until now. I have a funny/unique perspective since I'm now almost 30 and brand new to the game. Here are some of the answers that were 100% unanimous amongst the heterosexual women I interviewed: - Men should take on all form of "handyman" chores ("it's so hot when he uses his tools") - Men should pay for dates/meals (within reason - but the baseline expectation of a "man who can provide" is there) - Men should not cry unless there is a "good reason." This is actually a more complicated answer, and I'm still trying to figure it out. When pressed, women said that men crying can be very attractive if grounded in emotional maturity rather than "childish crying." Again, still trying to figure this one out. - Men should pursue women. Women find it unattractive if they have to pursue men. - Women highly value men who approach them in public (in an appropriate environment). My follow-up question was: "what if they're not attractive?" to which they replied something like "it's fine as long as they handle rejection well." - Women want men who are more confident than they are. - Men should always "take the lead" in dating and even throughout relationships. My follow-up question was: "but at what point does equality or partnership come into play?" To which the common response was: "I like taking the lead sometimes, but I don't want to be the leader." - Women prefer "dad bods" as opposed to "jacked" or "body builder" looking men. This article: https://nypost.com/2021/03/25/dad-bods-are-the-biggest-turn-on-for-singles-amid-pandemic/ https://nypost.com/2021/03/25/dad-bods-are-the-biggest-turn-... was used as one of the references. I would describe this as men who are physically strong but have 12-18% bodyfat. - Women prefer tall men, but "it's more of a wishlist item than a strict requirement" These answers are based on a sample size of 15 heterosexual women and will likely have less unanimity once I'm done. Some of them are quite obvious, but some of them were shocking to me because I've read a few too many "articles" from blue checkmark Twitter users which made me think traditional masculinity was an inconvenient character flaw rather than something women were directly attracted to and looking for. I'll be sending out a few chapters in the coming months: https://theloveoncepromised.com/ https://theloveoncepromised.com/
        • Shared404 4y ago
          Interesting results! I'd be interested to hear more details on the demographics - I suspect that as the demographics get younger, the less these points will hold true. My comments below are based in my own experience, and observations of my peers (ETA: Comments here are are all analysis of hetero relationships): The points where I would expect to see the most variance from individual to individual: > Men should take on all form of "handyman" chores ("it's so hot when he uses his tools") In several heterosexual families I know, it's the woman who does most to all of the "handyman" type chores, and it's preferred that way. > Men should pay for dates/meals (within reason - but the baseline expectation of a "man who can provide" is there) This varies by couple in my experience. Some split everything 50/50ish, some the man pays by default. Don't think I've seen any where the woman always pays. > Men should always "take the lead" in dating and even throughout relationships. My follow-up question was: "but at what point does equality or partnership come into play?" To which the common response was: "I like taking the lead sometimes, but I don't want to be the leader." I'd be very surprised to see this play out at 100%, but I could be wrong. Most healthy relationships I've seen have been very much equal back and forth, or having each individual lead where they are most qualified (regardless of traditional gender roles). > Men should not cry unless there is a "good reason." This is actually a more complicated answer, and I'm still trying to figure it out. When pressed, women said that men crying can be very attractive if grounded in emotional maturity rather than "childish crying." Again, still trying to figure this one out. A "good reason" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there. I'd say it would be reasonable to not expect any adult not to cry if not given a "good reason". An analysis of what constitutes a "good reason" will vary individual to individual in all likelihood, and is probably too complex for an HN comment :P. Ones I'm not shocked by: > Men should pursue women. Women find it unattractive if they have to pursue men. > Women highly value men who approach them in public (in an appropriate environment). My follow-up question was: "what if they're not attractive?" to which they replied something like "it's fine as long as they handle rejection well." In my experience and observation of others, no one wants to make the first move :P . As such, with societal expectation being on the man (in hetero relationships), it makes sense the woman would be happy with that. > Women prefer "dad bods" as opposed to "jacked" or "body builder" looking men. This article: https://nypost.com/2021/03/25/dad-bods-are-the-biggest-turn- https://nypost.com/2021/03/25/dad-bods-are-the-biggest-turn-... was used as one of the references. I would describe this as men who are physically strong but have 12-18% bodyfat. - Women prefer tall men, but "it's more of a wishlist item than a strict requirement" These check out with everything I've seen/heard. > Women want men who are more confident than they are. Everybody likes confident people. (I think?) Other comments: > but some of them were shocking to me because I've read a few too many "articles" from blue checkmark Twitter users which made me think traditional masculinity was an inconvenient character flaw rather than something women were directly attracted to and looking for. This is probably due to the distaste for "toxic masculinity". Healthy masculinity is what's described above, whereas "toxic masculinity" is that taken to extremes where it is no longer healthy (ie. "Men no longer should cry at all", as opposed to "Men should cry if there is a good reason" or "A man should be able to provide" vs "If a man isn't providing everything from outside the house, he and his wife are failing")
• ch4s3 4y ago
  Any interesting surprises?
  • spoonjim 4y ago
    I can tell you that most people do not believe that trans X are “ACTUALLY X” or that transgender women should be in competitive womens sports. It’s like, OK, you want to be a woman, you do you but don’t get into my women-only spaces. But most people with influence regardless of their beliefs don’t really say this in public.
    • leephillips 4y ago
      I’ve never met a single person in real life who believes this (TWAW, etc.). But places like Twitter are foaming with accounts that at least perform these beliefs.
      • rgbrgb 4y ago
        We're here too! Trans women are women. Trans men are men. Nice to meet you.
        • Shared404 4y ago
          True! Also, trans rights are human rights. For anyone looking to understand more on any given lgbtq+ topic, I highly recommend One Topic at a Time on YouTube. He does videos covering memes from various subreddits, and often learns/teaches about these topics.
      • fshbbdssbbgdd 4y ago
        How do you know? Do you go around asking every person you meet about this?
      • ham-sandwich 4y ago
• bombcar 4y ago
  My new game is watching when something online doesn’t interview people directly but simply reports on what someone on Twitter or Reddit said (and half the time they do have a picture and a name it’s a Twitter user they contacted). The world outside the internet is getting wider and wider it seems.
  • robmerki 4y ago
    Good observation. It's the purest form of intellectual laziness.
    • abathur 4y ago
      This is a low effort "gotcha" way of dismissing the work of real humans who are struggling to meet newsroom deadlines and productivity schedules as their industry gets picked over by vulture capital in the wake of online news, craigslist/social/app classifieds, and social/search ads hoovering up most of their revenue streams. (I agree these are cheap, fluff news--but it's hard to judge most individual reporters when you know the ground financial truth of the industry. Even at pretty venerable publications people are having to hustle hard for salaries that few people with programming jobs in the same city would even entertain. People at smaller legacy news outlets are working for schoolteacher wages or worse without the benefits or job security.)
      • bigDinosaur 4y ago
        Reposting reddit comments is hardly work. If that style of journalism vanished nobody would care. People who find themselves doing that should consider a different career. I wouldn't be surprised if the attrition rates for the industry are very high.
        • abathur 4y ago
          Sure--but getting clicks is (~now) part of their job.
          • 4y ago
• phailhaus 4y ago
  > A common answer I received was: "I love the push for equal opportunities for men and women, but I desire [traditional gender role] and I dislike having to justify it to myself." I always found this interesting. Do they think that it's not an option anymore? That's like saying "look, I get that left-handed people should have equal opportunities, but I'm right handed." Why is the option of something else treated as a threat? Is it a form of projection, the fear that it will somehow become illegal to be traditional, because they themselves have been extremely hostile to the nontraditional?
  • anonporridge 4y ago
    "To the privileged, equality feels like oppression."
    • robmerki 4y ago
      This is a low effort "gotcha" way of dismissing the real feelings of humans who are struggling to reconcile their deeply held desires with what they perceive in media.
      • esrauch 4y ago
        This seems like a weird case though, because you don't need to look far at all to find "traditional" family structures in media, almost all depictions of stay at home moms is positive, with tons of media depicting stay at home mom as the "toughest job". It seems possible that that condition is backlash against representation, and that people do get real feelings of struggle in response to their preferred lifestyle not being the only one depicted anymore. Feelings can be real and philosophically problematic, and even contrary to ones consciously held beliefs.
      • streamlining 4y ago
        Yes, let's all offer our deepest thoughts and prays to these individuals enduring this terrible imaginary plight.
      • chowchowchow 4y ago
• majormajor 4y ago
  What's interesting to me, I think, is that it's not that hard to find mainstream media that promotes a lot of these same ideas. Start with the most watched cable TV network. ;) Yet even the people on Fox News would largely agree with the view that they are somehow "outside" the norm. While happily pocketing their advertiser money for having the most viewers... My question is: why do people let them? It only helps the truly extreme! In two main ways: First, the more the truly extreme can convince the moderates/"traditional" that it's "us against the world," the easier to radicalize them. Second, the less that progressive folks accurately represent the prevalence of such views, the more out of touch their messaging inevitably will become in an echo chamber, shooting themselves in the foot. The fact that Twitter is full of people who get lots of views for screaming about stuff that is actually quite mainstream in the US and even globally is an indictment of Twitter, too, for that matter. Why are we still paying attention?
• ladyattis 4y ago
  >A common answer I received was: "I love the push for equal opportunities for men and women, but I desire [traditional gender role] and I dislike having to justify it to myself." It's funny how some folks think that they have to justify anything they do. It doesn't seem to like click with some folks that if you have to justify something that you're doing but it doesn't truly affect others in the sense that it's an impediment to their health and happiness then maybe there's no need to justify it at all and that all the pressure that you're feeling is others being... a-holes. Just a random thought I guess.