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It’s funny how brand reputation and impression works. I do not remember every story that has been posted about Brave since its inception. I always remember my

It’s funny how brand reputation and impression works. I do not remember every story that has been posted about Brave since its inception. I always remember my emotional takeaway, which is that I don’t trust it. My fuzzy memory on it is: something about brokering my private data, which I never want shared period, something about optimizing my relationship with ads which I want nothing to do with, something about a crypto scam.

natly 4y ago
It's funny how powerful genuinely acting honorable and having a good reputation can be in a world where everyone seems to think you can get away with sociopathic behavior.
dubswithus 4y ago
Fuzzy memory, huh? Machine learning is local. The data is never shared with Brave or advertisers.
stepupmakeup 4y ago
Another recent incident was with them appending affiliate codes to specific crypto-related URLs by default. It was fixed after public outcry (the option still remains) at least, but I personally believe something like that shouldn't be in software at all, full stop.
- coffeeling 4y ago
  The feature is basically meant to be like Firefox Suggest and give you a sponsored link in the dropdown, if you don't type in a proper URL. The bug that caused the outcry was typing in a proper URL resulting in the sponsored link being the first suggestion. Was fixed and the feature disabled by default.
rglullis 4y ago
The "brokering of data" is in-device. They don't get to access any of it. You don't anything to do with ads? Just don't sign up to the rewards system. It's opt-in. The "crypto scam"? What part of it is a scam, if at no point users are required to put any money or buy anything to participate? It is also opt-in, and the token exists mostly because it is the only way possible for them to pay users their share of revenues anywhere in the world without having to become a money transmitter themselves.
- robonerd 4y ago
  > What part of it is a scam, if at no point users are required to put any money or buy anything to participate? That's not a convincing rebuttal. A scam with a "free-to-play" tier is still a scam. Lots of carnies will let you play their scam game for free a few times, letting you get into the game for free is a popular trick for scammers. With respect to Brave's thing specifically, it doesn't really seem like a scam to me. But I don't blame people for thinking it's a scam. If you reflexively call anything remotely related to cryptocurrencies a scam, you'll be right more often than not. It may not always be accurate 100% of the time, but it's a very good heuristic. If Brave wants to use a cryptocurrency and not be considered a scam, they have their work cut out for them. That's just the way it is.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    The point is that there is no "game". You opt-in for the ads, you receive the notification, you get paid for it. There is no downside for the users. There could be a downside for the advertisers, if they were being forced to buy the token to place the ads, but even that is not possible, because the ad campaigns are priced and paid in USD.
    - robonerd 4y ago
      I agree that Brave's thing is not a scam. Nevertheless, "all crypto is a scam" is a good rule of thumb that would do most people more good than harm. Generally speaking, I think people should be encouraged to think of all cryptocurrencies as scams. That's the advice I give to my family and any friends who ask.
      - rglullis 4y ago
        > I think people should be encouraged to think of all cryptocurrencies as scams. You are encouraging people to "think" something that you personally know not to be true. IOW, you are not encouraging them to "think" anything. You are just feeding them a conclusion, and you are spreading a lie. You might believe that is a white lie, but it's a lie nonetheless. Worse still, it's the type of lie that, if repeated often enough, damages all the reputation from honest people and destroys all chance of good work coming from the space. The lie becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can do better than that. I am not telling you to do a 180 in your opinion, or to support any crypto project in particular. But at the very least, stop feeding people with the conclusion and actually state the principles behind your reasoning. Heuristics and "rules of thumb" help when there is uncertainty and when there is risk associated with a decision, but before applying an heuristic you can and should remove as much uncertainty as possible.
mrweasel 4y ago
It's not just you. There's something in the back of my mind that tells me that Brave is a sketchy company. I have absolutely NOTHING to back up that feeling, but I'm profusely against using any of their products.
- redog 4y ago
  The only people I've ever met that use brave are evangelical republicans who are basically Qnuts. I'd rather tailor my own version of chromium than use what Q suggested.
  - prepend 4y ago
    I use it and I’m not those things. Brave is now my default recommendation to “normies” as it’s easiest to set up and reduce the Bonnard of ads and it doesn’t track you. I used to recommend Firefox but it’s huge and bloated and isn’t as easy to use any more. It’s funny because it seems your social network is a bit weird if you have such a limited intersection of Brave+Qnuts. Interestingly, I don’t know a single person irl who is a “qnut” (or at least admits it to me) but I know lots of sysadmin types with a decent chunk who use Brave. Probably 50% are “de googling.”
  - lfkdev 4y ago
    Yeah man, I get you. Last time someone of these Q Guys recommended Linux to me! Nuts! I will never ever use something they will suggest!
- stjohnswarts 4y ago
  that's just being paranoid; "gut feeling" is no better than random selection when not backed up without proof.
NelsonMinar 4y ago
Brave has a long history of doing unethical things. You covered some of them, another is the time they hijacked affiliate codes in URLs without disclosing it. They turned it off when they got caught and claimed it was a mistake. https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/06/the-brave-web-browser-is-hijacking-links-and-inserting-affiliate-codes/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/06/the-brave-we...
- rglullis 4y ago
  A "long history" consisting of one data point where people immediately assumed malice without any chance of recourse. Also, I'd really like to know what browser is being used by those complaining over "unethical behavior". Unless you are using Ungoogled Chromium or Vivaldi, your choice is almost certainly from an organization with a considerably longer "history of doing unethical things". Yes, Mozilla included.
  - pavlov 4y ago
    The point is that Brave, despite their short history, has already managed to demonstrate several instances of suspicious or potentially unethical behavior. There's no evidence that they'd do any better than their competitors over time. But some people seem to have a default ideological preference for Brave, similar to how many are theoretically opposed to "Big Tech" but suddenly don't seem to have a problem if Elon Musk were to become the replacement Zuckerberg.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      Brave is already over 6 years old.
  - simonebrunozzi 4y ago
    Mozilla: source?
    - stjohnswarts 4y ago
      some people consider pocket, anonymous usage data, etc as deal breakers and "getting sold out" . I don't, but lots of privacy centric people want a browser with zero ads, self-promotion, or phoning home (for any reason) that isn't opt-in.
lfkdev 4y ago
Wow this here is one of the most uninformed, useless comment I ever saw on HN.

natly 4y ago

It's funny how powerful genuinely acting honorable and having a good reputation can be in a world where everyone seems to think you can get away with sociopathic behavior.

dubswithus 4y ago

Fuzzy memory, huh? Machine learning is local. The data is never shared with Brave or advertisers.

stepupmakeup 4y ago

Another recent incident was with them appending affiliate codes to specific crypto-related URLs by default. It was fixed after public outcry (the option still remains) at least, but I personally believe something like that shouldn't be in software at all, full stop.

coffeeling 4y ago
The feature is basically meant to be like Firefox Suggest and give you a sponsored link in the dropdown, if you don't type in a proper URL. The bug that caused the outcry was typing in a proper URL resulting in the sponsored link being the first suggestion. Was fixed and the feature disabled by default.

rglullis 4y ago

The "brokering of data" is in-device. They don't get to access any of it. You don't anything to do with ads? Just don't sign up to the rewards system. It's opt-in. The "crypto scam"? What part of it is a scam, if at no point users are required to put any money or buy anything to participate? It is also opt-in, and the token exists mostly because it is the only way possible for them to pay users their share of revenues anywhere in the world without having to become a money transmitter themselves.

robonerd 4y ago
> What part of it is a scam, if at no point users are required to put any money or buy anything to participate? That's not a convincing rebuttal. A scam with a "free-to-play" tier is still a scam. Lots of carnies will let you play their scam game for free a few times, letting you get into the game for free is a popular trick for scammers. With respect to Brave's thing specifically, it doesn't really seem like a scam to me. But I don't blame people for thinking it's a scam. If you reflexively call anything remotely related to cryptocurrencies a scam, you'll be right more often than not. It may not always be accurate 100% of the time, but it's a very good heuristic. If Brave wants to use a cryptocurrency and not be considered a scam, they have their work cut out for them. That's just the way it is.
- rglullis 4y ago
  The point is that there is no "game". You opt-in for the ads, you receive the notification, you get paid for it. There is no downside for the users. There could be a downside for the advertisers, if they were being forced to buy the token to place the ads, but even that is not possible, because the ad campaigns are priced and paid in USD.
  - robonerd 4y ago
    I agree that Brave's thing is not a scam. Nevertheless, "all crypto is a scam" is a good rule of thumb that would do most people more good than harm. Generally speaking, I think people should be encouraged to think of all cryptocurrencies as scams. That's the advice I give to my family and any friends who ask.
    - rglullis 4y ago
      > I think people should be encouraged to think of all cryptocurrencies as scams. You are encouraging people to "think" something that you personally know not to be true. IOW, you are not encouraging them to "think" anything. You are just feeding them a conclusion, and you are spreading a lie. You might believe that is a white lie, but it's a lie nonetheless. Worse still, it's the type of lie that, if repeated often enough, damages all the reputation from honest people and destroys all chance of good work coming from the space. The lie becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. You can do better than that. I am not telling you to do a 180 in your opinion, or to support any crypto project in particular. But at the very least, stop feeding people with the conclusion and actually state the principles behind your reasoning. Heuristics and "rules of thumb" help when there is uncertainty and when there is risk associated with a decision, but before applying an heuristic you can and should remove as much uncertainty as possible.

mrweasel 4y ago

It's not just you. There's something in the back of my mind that tells me that Brave is a sketchy company. I have absolutely NOTHING to back up that feeling, but I'm profusely against using any of their products.

redog 4y ago
The only people I've ever met that use brave are evangelical republicans who are basically Qnuts. I'd rather tailor my own version of chromium than use what Q suggested.
- prepend 4y ago
  I use it and I’m not those things. Brave is now my default recommendation to “normies” as it’s easiest to set up and reduce the Bonnard of ads and it doesn’t track you. I used to recommend Firefox but it’s huge and bloated and isn’t as easy to use any more. It’s funny because it seems your social network is a bit weird if you have such a limited intersection of Brave+Qnuts. Interestingly, I don’t know a single person irl who is a “qnut” (or at least admits it to me) but I know lots of sysadmin types with a decent chunk who use Brave. Probably 50% are “de googling.”
- lfkdev 4y ago
  Yeah man, I get you. Last time someone of these Q Guys recommended Linux to me! Nuts! I will never ever use something they will suggest!
stjohnswarts 4y ago
that's just being paranoid; "gut feeling" is no better than random selection when not backed up without proof.

NelsonMinar 4y ago

Brave has a long history of doing unethical things. You covered some of them, another is the time they hijacked affiliate codes in URLs without disclosing it. They turned it off when they got caught and claimed it was a mistake. https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/06/the-brave-web-browser-is-hijacking-links-and-inserting-affiliate-codes/ https://davidgerard.co.uk/blockchain/2020/06/06/the-brave-we...

rglullis 4y ago
A "long history" consisting of one data point where people immediately assumed malice without any chance of recourse. Also, I'd really like to know what browser is being used by those complaining over "unethical behavior". Unless you are using Ungoogled Chromium or Vivaldi, your choice is almost certainly from an organization with a considerably longer "history of doing unethical things". Yes, Mozilla included.
- pavlov 4y ago
  The point is that Brave, despite their short history, has already managed to demonstrate several instances of suspicious or potentially unethical behavior. There's no evidence that they'd do any better than their competitors over time. But some people seem to have a default ideological preference for Brave, similar to how many are theoretically opposed to "Big Tech" but suddenly don't seem to have a problem if Elon Musk were to become the replacement Zuckerberg.
  - rglullis 4y ago
    Brave is already over 6 years old.
- simonebrunozzi 4y ago
  Mozilla: source?
  - stjohnswarts 4y ago
    some people consider pocket, anonymous usage data, etc as deal breakers and "getting sold out" . I don't, but lots of privacy centric people want a browser with zero ads, self-promotion, or phoning home (for any reason) that isn't opt-in.

lfkdev 4y ago

Wow this here is one of the most uninformed, useless comment I ever saw on HN.