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> Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. According to a dictionary.

> Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. According to a dictionary. I think if we want to have a meaningful debate, we need to stick to certain established definitions and this includes the meaning of suffering. How am I moving the goal post? The topic I'm talking about is that our current global food system and a heavy diet of meat & dairy is considerably contributing towards our biosphere destruction and that this meat & dairy diet causes unnecessary cruelty towards other animals. > It's just that all that stuff you say is mad. What is mad about listening to scientists? What is mad about finding ways to not destroy our biosphere? What is mad about not killing and exploiting other sentient beings when we don't need to? Whay is mad about not creating a horrific industry (slaughterhouses) that gives people PTSD? > I linked to a bunch of those above [...] Vegan diest are not healthy. Then why do health and nutrition experts disagree with you? Are you a doctor or health expert? Why does The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics say ""Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment" Why does the UN and IPCC recommend a more plant-based diet? You linked to the following sites and both of them said there are no real concerns with a vegan diet - just need to ensure you eat plant based foods that have the nutrients you need and supplement accordingly. 1) https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 "As noted above, a well-planned and carefully followed vegetarian diet can satisfy the nutrient requirements for infants and children, and thus cause no real concern." 2) https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... "In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet - micro-organisms - without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage. Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear." B12 is not produced by animals. We don't have to kill animals to get B12. So considering all of the above - it's a fact that we don't need meat to survive. So please answer this question for me: If we can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why don't we?

cheese_goddess 4y ago
> How am I moving the goal post? For example, you want from being concern about killing, to being concerned about suffering, to being concerned about the environment, to arguing how healthy it is to eat a vegan diet, and now you're concerned about cruelty. In truth, you don't care about any of those things. You're just promoting your ideology on the internet. Or rather, in an HN thread that nobody even reads besides you and me. Yawn.
- uxcolumbo 4y ago
  Let me repeat it again and not use too many words this time. The topic is: The meat & dairy industry causes environmental destruction and it's unnecessarily cruel towards other animals. We've reached a point in human and technological evolution that we don't need to exploit & kill animals for our own survival anymore. The official definition of veganism is: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." What's wrong with trying to promote that way of thinking? Please tell me what is wrong about avoiding cruelty, killing and environmental destruction if all you have to do is not support the meat & dairy industry and not eating animals?
- uxcolumbo 4y ago
  > Or rather, in an HN thread that nobody even reads besides you and me. Yawn. Haha - you never know. HN is going to live on forever and some sentient AI will parse this content and agree that it is illogical to use meat & diary to feed the world as there are other foods that require far fewer resources ;)

cheese_goddess 4y ago

> How am I moving the goal post? For example, you want from being concern about killing, to being concerned about suffering, to being concerned about the environment, to arguing how healthy it is to eat a vegan diet, and now you're concerned about cruelty. In truth, you don't care about any of those things. You're just promoting your ideology on the internet. Or rather, in an HN thread that nobody even reads besides you and me. Yawn.

uxcolumbo 4y ago
Let me repeat it again and not use too many words this time. The topic is: The meat & dairy industry causes environmental destruction and it's unnecessarily cruel towards other animals. We've reached a point in human and technological evolution that we don't need to exploit & kill animals for our own survival anymore. The official definition of veganism is: "Veganism is a philosophy and way of living which seeks to exclude—as far as is possible and practicable—all forms of exploitation of, and cruelty to, animals for food, clothing or any other purpose; and by extension, promotes the development and use of animal-free alternatives for the benefit of animals, humans and the environment. In dietary terms it denotes the practice of dispensing with all products derived wholly or partly from animals." What's wrong with trying to promote that way of thinking? Please tell me what is wrong about avoiding cruelty, killing and environmental destruction if all you have to do is not support the meat & dairy industry and not eating animals?
uxcolumbo 4y ago
> Or rather, in an HN thread that nobody even reads besides you and me. Yawn. Haha - you never know. HN is going to live on forever and some sentient AI will parse this content and agree that it is illogical to use meat & diary to feed the world as there are other foods that require far fewer resources ;)