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> and abided by the previous commitment to exit Afghanistan. Ummm, what? Biden moved the date for withdrawal back, to make it coincide with a 9/11 anniversary

> and abided by the previous commitment to exit Afghanistan. Ummm, what? Biden moved the date for withdrawal back, to make it coincide with a 9/11 anniversary. Then, seeing that the US would just arbitrarily change treaties, the Taliban launched an assault and reconquered the country. I get that historical revisionism is popular with political partisans, but usually you wait until goldfish have forgotten the details before attempted to do so in such a blatant manner.

spywaregorilla 4y ago
Are you trying to suggest the taliban wouldn't have launched an assault if the date wasn't moved and the US pulled out? I feel your desire to throw a political punch has utterly blinded you here.
- andrewclunn 4y ago
  That is exactly what I'm claiming, as evidenced by the timeline and events as they occurred. To label a resounding defeat as a withdrawal, simultaneously claim the withdrawal treaty was Trump's plan (but not hold Biden to account for breaking it), and then also claim that this was a continuation of the previous administration's policy... I mean these responses are inline with the sort of "facts don't matter" tribal rage I expected. Yours however, that dismisses the US blatantly breaking a treaty, is the special kind of qualified US military apologist rhetoric (just so long as the president has a D by their name) that is truly contemptible. Hence why your comment got the reply.
  - spywaregorilla 4y ago
    Well... I think that's a really dumb opinion. I guess we're just at an impass.
  - andscoop 4y ago
    I'll agree with one thing - the current administration did what they could to shake off the blame. However, your implications that the Taliban wouldn't have invaded if the timeline had been 4 months different seems to be "the sort of 'facts don't matter' tribal rage I expected". I'd suggest stepping back and evaluating your political blinders.
macintux 4y ago
“Biden made the Taliban conquer Afghanistan” is as believable as “Biden made Putin invade Ukraine”.
- andrewclunn 4y ago
  Would you believe that the US policy of continually expanding NATO, combined with a military coup of the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014 are more to blame for Putin attacking Ukraine? I wouldn't blame Biden. I'd blame Clinton, Bush, and Obama. But hey, you weren't actually asking to be informed about anything that wasn't CIA approved corporate news talking points. You just wanted a pithy straw man joke. (Side Note - Burning karma to put some truth where people might see it is the only good use for the stuff.)
  - macintux 4y ago
    I would only believe that Putin is to blame for Putin attacking and brutalizing Ukraine. And Syria. And Chechnya. And Georgia. Sorry, apparently I’m brainwashed.
    - andrewclunn 4y ago
      Funny you should mention Georgia, since they declared war on Russia. Every single one of my factual claims is just an internet search away. And yes, (though you said it in jest) I do believe you are brainwashed.
  - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
    I believe a citation is needed for the claim that the 2014 Ukraine revolution was a "military coup". Anyway, it's not like the US demanded that Latvia, Poland, etc. join NATO. They are sovereign nations who hated Soviet occupation, and when they got a chance, they joined a mutual defense organization to keep Russia from re-invading them. If Russia didn't want NATO to expand, it shouldn't have been so aggressive towards its neighbors.
  - riku_iki 4y ago
briffle 4y ago
How does withdrawing in late August coincide with 9/11 anniversary? And how does 'delaying the withdrawl since the other side was not keeping to the treaty by attacking local governments' become 'arbitrarily changing treaties'?
bwb 4y ago
Just going to chime in with a non political fact: the withdrawal treaty was done by the previous administration, the planning by the military. It was always going to be a shit show. Presidents are not all powerful gods who control things like the stock market, inflation, or pulling everyone out of a foreign country.
- FredPret 4y ago
  It’s surprising to see people’s willingness to attribute everything that happens to the president. Trump: Stock market boom, Jobs boom, Covid, Police violence Biden: Recession The optimal Covid response will only be known a generation from now. The best government economic policy is something that has to play out over many years and has only a loose connection to broader economic performance. The cops are going to do what they’re going to do. Etc.
  - ProjectArcturis 4y ago
    Sure, you can't attribute a recession or a boom to a president. But the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan is pretty much squarely on the shoulders of the Commander in Chief.
    - FredPret 4y ago
      So things like that, that the president does or does not do, can be laid at the feet of the president. But he does not control the economy, and does not know the perfect answer to a black swan event like Covid… since we don’t know what the perfect response looks like. For example, hard lockdown = possibly less Covid, more harm from the lockdown. No lockdown = possibly more Covid, economy keeps booming (unless everyone dies of Covid!). What’s the optimal mix? Nobody knows. The president, even if he knows, cannot snap his fingers and make it happen.
  - lambic2 4y ago
    Isn't that a verifiable fact though, that Trump set the deadline to be fully out of Afghanistan and that it was going to be super messy with the aggressive timeline? Article from March 2021: https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2021/03/17/us-troop-withdrawal-afghanistan-trumps-deadline-weighs-biden/4667248001/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2021/03/17/u...
andscoop 4y ago
> Biden moved the date for withdrawal back, to make it coincide with a 9/11 anniversary. Then, seeing that the US would just arbitrarily change treaties, the Taliban launched an assault and reconquered the country. Are you implying that not delaying the withdrawal would have resulted in the Taliban leaving the rest of the country alone and going about their business? From what I understand about it, the treaty was falling apart from the very beginning due to the US Government conducting negotiations without involving the Afghan government [1]. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Afghanistan_(2020–2021)#US–Taliban_deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_tr... [edited] verb tense

spywaregorilla 4y ago

Are you trying to suggest the taliban wouldn't have launched an assault if the date wasn't moved and the US pulled out? I feel your desire to throw a political punch has utterly blinded you here.

andrewclunn 4y ago
That is exactly what I'm claiming, as evidenced by the timeline and events as they occurred. To label a resounding defeat as a withdrawal, simultaneously claim the withdrawal treaty was Trump's plan (but not hold Biden to account for breaking it), and then also claim that this was a continuation of the previous administration's policy... I mean these responses are inline with the sort of "facts don't matter" tribal rage I expected. Yours however, that dismisses the US blatantly breaking a treaty, is the special kind of qualified US military apologist rhetoric (just so long as the president has a D by their name) that is truly contemptible. Hence why your comment got the reply.
- spywaregorilla 4y ago
  Well... I think that's a really dumb opinion. I guess we're just at an impass.
- andscoop 4y ago
  I'll agree with one thing - the current administration did what they could to shake off the blame. However, your implications that the Taliban wouldn't have invaded if the timeline had been 4 months different seems to be "the sort of 'facts don't matter' tribal rage I expected". I'd suggest stepping back and evaluating your political blinders.

macintux 4y ago

“Biden made the Taliban conquer Afghanistan” is as believable as “Biden made Putin invade Ukraine”.

andrewclunn 4y ago
Would you believe that the US policy of continually expanding NATO, combined with a military coup of the democratically elected Ukrainian government in 2014 are more to blame for Putin attacking Ukraine? I wouldn't blame Biden. I'd blame Clinton, Bush, and Obama. But hey, you weren't actually asking to be informed about anything that wasn't CIA approved corporate news talking points. You just wanted a pithy straw man joke. (Side Note - Burning karma to put some truth where people might see it is the only good use for the stuff.)
- macintux 4y ago
  I would only believe that Putin is to blame for Putin attacking and brutalizing Ukraine. And Syria. And Chechnya. And Georgia. Sorry, apparently I’m brainwashed.
  - andrewclunn 4y ago
    Funny you should mention Georgia, since they declared war on Russia. Every single one of my factual claims is just an internet search away. And yes, (though you said it in jest) I do believe you are brainwashed.
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  I believe a citation is needed for the claim that the 2014 Ukraine revolution was a "military coup". Anyway, it's not like the US demanded that Latvia, Poland, etc. join NATO. They are sovereign nations who hated Soviet occupation, and when they got a chance, they joined a mutual defense organization to keep Russia from re-invading them. If Russia didn't want NATO to expand, it shouldn't have been so aggressive towards its neighbors.
- riku_iki 4y ago

briffle 4y ago

How does withdrawing in late August coincide with 9/11 anniversary? And how does 'delaying the withdrawl since the other side was not keeping to the treaty by attacking local governments' become 'arbitrarily changing treaties'?

bwb 4y ago

Just going to chime in with a non political fact: the withdrawal treaty was done by the previous administration, the planning by the military. It was always going to be a shit show. Presidents are not all powerful gods who control things like the stock market, inflation, or pulling everyone out of a foreign country.

FredPret 4y ago
It’s surprising to see people’s willingness to attribute everything that happens to the president. Trump: Stock market boom, Jobs boom, Covid, Police violence Biden: Recession The optimal Covid response will only be known a generation from now. The best government economic policy is something that has to play out over many years and has only a loose connection to broader economic performance. The cops are going to do what they’re going to do. Etc.
- ProjectArcturis 4y ago
  Sure, you can't attribute a recession or a boom to a president. But the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan is pretty much squarely on the shoulders of the Commander in Chief.
  - FredPret 4y ago
    So things like that, that the president does or does not do, can be laid at the feet of the president. But he does not control the economy, and does not know the perfect answer to a black swan event like Covid… since we don’t know what the perfect response looks like. For example, hard lockdown = possibly less Covid, more harm from the lockdown. No lockdown = possibly more Covid, economy keeps booming (unless everyone dies of Covid!). What’s the optimal mix? Nobody knows. The president, even if he knows, cannot snap his fingers and make it happen.
- lambic2 4y ago
  Isn't that a verifiable fact though, that Trump set the deadline to be fully out of Afghanistan and that it was going to be super messy with the aggressive timeline? Article from March 2021: https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2021/03/17/us-troop-withdrawal-afghanistan-trumps-deadline-weighs-biden/4667248001/ https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/news/politics/2021/03/17/u...

andscoop 4y ago

> Biden moved the date for withdrawal back, to make it coincide with a 9/11 anniversary. Then, seeing that the US would just arbitrarily change treaties, the Taliban launched an assault and reconquered the country. Are you implying that not delaying the withdrawal would have resulted in the Taliban leaving the rest of the country alone and going about their business? From what I understand about it, the treaty was falling apart from the very beginning due to the US Government conducting negotiations without involving the Afghan government [1]. [1]:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_troops_from_Afghanistan_(2020–2021)#US–Taliban_deal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Withdrawal_of_United_States_tr... [edited] verb tense