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When it comes to kids, one of the worst things you can do is create the misleading illusion of "hard work and dedication." This applies to Bill Gates, Lance Ar

When it comes to kids, one of the worst things you can do is create the misleading illusion of "hard work and dedication." This applies to Bill Gates, Lance Armstrong (and many other professional athletes), Donald Trump, Jennifer Lawrence, RL Stine, KA Applegate, etc. I don't mean to take anything from these folks. Success, even if you have a leg up or game the system, does require a lot of effort and sacrifice, but I think if we had more integrity around the other pieces of the puzzle, it would drastically change how we view success in this country. One of the things I like about Twitch is that you can see the full spectrum of talent and success. In the Music category, the difference in musical talent between someone with 5000 viewers and someone with 100 viewers is almost nonexistent, but the production value, allure, niche, etc all plays a huge factor.

bitshiftfaced 4y ago
For many kids, the difference between a 'C' and an 'A' is very much "hard work and dedication." Sometimes they may not try hard, and still get an A+. Sometimes they'll work hard and still get a 'C', but hard work and grades usually correlate, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure you're not saying that we should teach or kids that cheating on their test every now and then is a good way to be successful.
caconym_ 4y ago
I think this is more about teaching kids the universality and importance of marketing. If you want to develop a creative skill to the point where strangers will seek out and consume your work (let alone pay for the privilege of doing so) you'll need to work your ass off for years regardless of how well you end up marketing the results.
jdsully 4y ago
Bill gates was known for sleeping under desks at the office and didn’t really take a vacation till he was 30. I’m not sure why you’d use him as an example that hard work doesn’t pay off.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Even with those stories it's more of an example of survivorship bias than him earning his immense wealth. There is no actual link between "sleeping under your desk" and "becoming a billionaire".
  - jdsully 4y ago
    It’s definitely not sufficient for success but it is often a necessary precondition. People get caught up on the randomness, but hard work increases the number of dice rolls you can get in life. I’ve seen it pay off many times (and I’ve also seen it fail completely)
    - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
      That's true, but for his level of success that's arguing you should buy two lottery tickets instead of one because it greatly increases your odds of winning.
      - FredPret 4y ago
        If his level of wealth is your definition of success, it’ll do everyone a disservice. Working hard will dramatically increase the odds of an acceptable or good outcome where you are upper-middle class or have a couple of mil and are retired comfortably. An outcome where you have 100B+ is such an outlier, there can be no general advice on how to do it.
        SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        The original poster I'm commenting about says: "Success, even if you have a leg up or game the system, does require a lot of effort and sacrifice, but I think if we had more integrity around the other pieces of the puzzle, it would drastically change how we view success in this country." and this is huge. As a software dev I don't work nearly as hard as I did when I was a cook, but I know which one I'm far more successful at, and I know that there was no way my work as a cook would have put me into upper-middle class territory, even though I spent 6 days a week sweating.
Mikeb85 4y ago
> production value, allure, niche, etc all plays a huge factor Production value = hard work. Finding your niche requires marketing skills and work. Etc... So really the key is that even if you have talent, you need to put in work.
- debacle 4y ago
  Agreed, but in the start-up space I so often see this "If you build it, they will come" mentality, when a huge piece of the puzzle is sales/marketing. 80% of what goes into success is the boring stuff.
jmcgough 4y ago
KA Applegate has always been unusually forthcoming about using ghostwriters, especially for back when no one talked about them.
dehrmann 4y ago
Lance Armstrong might have used performance enhancing drugs, but so did all his competition. The unfortunate lesson to kids isn't that he cheated, it's that despite hard work and being one of the best in the world, he still had to cheat to be competitive.
- soperj 4y ago
  But did they all use PEDs because they knew Lance was?
  - x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
    They've talked about PEDs being endemic to cycling since forever.
friedman23 4y ago
So you want to teach your children that success is purely based on luck and not hard work? This is a surefire way to raise nihilistic underachievers.
- derbOac 4y ago
  There surely must be something between nhilistic underachievers and narcissistic psychopaths. Especially if you ever want to see change in the system.
  - friedman23 4y ago
    Only in the minds of the mal-educated would teaching children that hard work pays off equate with teaching them to be a narcissistic psycopath.
- bluefirebrand 4y ago
  "Success" is not based on luck. "Wild, runaway, moonshot style success that turns you into a billionaire" is based on luck. No matter how hard you work, that kind of success will always always always require a lot of right time, right place, right audience style luck. So yes. I would teach my children that. I would also teach them the old Captain Picard lesson: It is possible to do everything right and still not succeed. That is life.
  - friedman23 4y ago
    > "Wild, runaway, moonshot style success that turns you into a billionaire" is based on luck. No matter how hard you work, that kind of success will always always always require a lot of right time, right place, right audience style luck. And what would be the purpose of this lesson? > I would also teach them the old Captain Picard lesson: It is possible to do everything right and still not succeed. That is life. This is a dumb lesson. There are many things in life where if you make all the right decisions you will succeed. In chess if you make every perfect move you will succeed at winning. Let's take poker as an example, a game with an extreme amount of variance (or what the average person would call luck), if you make every right decision you will succeed over the long term, your profit will be a line with ups and downs that points up and to the right. Don't set dumb goals and success is easy.

bitshiftfaced 4y ago

For many kids, the difference between a 'C' and an 'A' is very much "hard work and dedication." Sometimes they may not try hard, and still get an A+. Sometimes they'll work hard and still get a 'C', but hard work and grades usually correlate, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure you're not saying that we should teach or kids that cheating on their test every now and then is a good way to be successful.

caconym_ 4y ago

I think this is more about teaching kids the universality and importance of marketing. If you want to develop a creative skill to the point where strangers will seek out and consume your work (let alone pay for the privilege of doing so) you'll need to work your ass off for years regardless of how well you end up marketing the results.

jdsully 4y ago

Bill gates was known for sleeping under desks at the office and didn’t really take a vacation till he was 30. I’m not sure why you’d use him as an example that hard work doesn’t pay off.

SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Even with those stories it's more of an example of survivorship bias than him earning his immense wealth. There is no actual link between "sleeping under your desk" and "becoming a billionaire".
- jdsully 4y ago
  It’s definitely not sufficient for success but it is often a necessary precondition. People get caught up on the randomness, but hard work increases the number of dice rolls you can get in life. I’ve seen it pay off many times (and I’ve also seen it fail completely)
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    That's true, but for his level of success that's arguing you should buy two lottery tickets instead of one because it greatly increases your odds of winning.
    - FredPret 4y ago
      If his level of wealth is your definition of success, it’ll do everyone a disservice. Working hard will dramatically increase the odds of an acceptable or good outcome where you are upper-middle class or have a couple of mil and are retired comfortably. An outcome where you have 100B+ is such an outlier, there can be no general advice on how to do it.
      - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
        The original poster I'm commenting about says: "Success, even if you have a leg up or game the system, does require a lot of effort and sacrifice, but I think if we had more integrity around the other pieces of the puzzle, it would drastically change how we view success in this country." and this is huge. As a software dev I don't work nearly as hard as I did when I was a cook, but I know which one I'm far more successful at, and I know that there was no way my work as a cook would have put me into upper-middle class territory, even though I spent 6 days a week sweating.

Mikeb85 4y ago

> production value, allure, niche, etc all plays a huge factor Production value = hard work. Finding your niche requires marketing skills and work. Etc... So really the key is that even if you have talent, you need to put in work.

debacle 4y ago
Agreed, but in the start-up space I so often see this "If you build it, they will come" mentality, when a huge piece of the puzzle is sales/marketing. 80% of what goes into success is the boring stuff.

jmcgough 4y ago

KA Applegate has always been unusually forthcoming about using ghostwriters, especially for back when no one talked about them.

dehrmann 4y ago

Lance Armstrong might have used performance enhancing drugs, but so did all his competition. The unfortunate lesson to kids isn't that he cheated, it's that despite hard work and being one of the best in the world, he still had to cheat to be competitive.

soperj 4y ago
But did they all use PEDs because they knew Lance was?
- x86_64Ubuntu 4y ago
  They've talked about PEDs being endemic to cycling since forever.

friedman23 4y ago

So you want to teach your children that success is purely based on luck and not hard work? This is a surefire way to raise nihilistic underachievers.

derbOac 4y ago
There surely must be something between nhilistic underachievers and narcissistic psychopaths. Especially if you ever want to see change in the system.
- friedman23 4y ago
  Only in the minds of the mal-educated would teaching children that hard work pays off equate with teaching them to be a narcissistic psycopath.
bluefirebrand 4y ago
"Success" is not based on luck. "Wild, runaway, moonshot style success that turns you into a billionaire" is based on luck. No matter how hard you work, that kind of success will always always always require a lot of right time, right place, right audience style luck. So yes. I would teach my children that. I would also teach them the old Captain Picard lesson: It is possible to do everything right and still not succeed. That is life.
- friedman23 4y ago
  > "Wild, runaway, moonshot style success that turns you into a billionaire" is based on luck. No matter how hard you work, that kind of success will always always always require a lot of right time, right place, right audience style luck. And what would be the purpose of this lesson? > I would also teach them the old Captain Picard lesson: It is possible to do everything right and still not succeed. That is life. This is a dumb lesson. There are many things in life where if you make all the right decisions you will succeed. In chess if you make every perfect move you will succeed at winning. Let's take poker as an example, a game with an extreme amount of variance (or what the average person would call luck), if you make every right decision you will succeed over the long term, your profit will be a line with ups and downs that points up and to the right. Don't set dumb goals and success is easy.