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> FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. Really? According to whom? According to

> FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. Nah, actually, not a nice try. Just even more typical vegan dishonesty and trying to win an argument by peddling lies. > It says most vegans have no problems. Nope. It says most vegans aren't clinically deficient. But it says very clearly that most vegans also have low homocysteine levels that put them at risk of heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications. > Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. That's calling the kettle black, coming from a vegan (I mean, assuming you are vegan). My handle, which seems to trigger vegans on HN, is chosen because I'm an amateur cheesemaker and I had thought when I created it that I could contribute to discussions with my empirical knowledge of cheesemaking and some little things I know about dairy science and technology. But it just so happens that any HN thread on anything to do with food is immediately invaded by hungry vegans keen on spreading their ideology. So I keep getting embroiled in these silly little internet arguments with people like you, who care nothing about anything but getting people to agree that eating meat is bad. I don't even eat that much meat. I eat it maybe ... once a week? Every two weeks? It's not like I'm keeping count. I eat beef maybe once every five years, because I don't like it. I grew up on a Mediterrannean diet and I still cook and eat that way. I find the people who say we should eat only meat about as mad as vegans, and about as unhealthy. So no, it's nothing to do with identity. It's just that all that stuff you say is mad. That we should eat only plants is as mad as saying we should eat only meat. It is mad people saying mad stuff on the mad internet. Mad mad mad. > Your statement goes against many nutrition experts It doesn't. What goes against those physicians you list is research that consistently finds that vegans are lacking in basic nutrients, that older vegans have more health issues, and that children fed vegan diets by their parents end up stunted, or dead. I linked to a bunch of those above and further down this sorry excuse for a thread. Why are all those physicians contradicting common research findings? Well, I have no clue. But I know who I'm siding with. The 17,000 "physicians" saying that it's fine to cut out a major food group from your diet? Or the researchers who say that if you do, you're in risk of malnutrition? Guess which one makes more sense.

uxcolumbo 4y ago
> Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. According to a dictionary. I think if we want to have a meaningful debate, we need to stick to certain established definitions and this includes the meaning of suffering. How am I moving the goal post? The topic I'm talking about is that our current global food system and a heavy diet of meat & dairy is considerably contributing towards our biosphere destruction and that this meat & dairy diet causes unnecessary cruelty towards other animals. > It's just that all that stuff you say is mad. What is mad about listening to scientists? What is mad about finding ways to not destroy our biosphere? What is mad about not killing and exploiting other sentient beings when we don't need to? Whay is mad about not creating a horrific industry (slaughterhouses) that gives people PTSD? > I linked to a bunch of those above [...] Vegan diest are not healthy. Then why do health and nutrition experts disagree with you? Are you a doctor or health expert? Why does The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics say ""Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment" Why does the UN and IPCC recommend a more plant-based diet? You linked to the following sites and both of them said there are no real concerns with a vegan diet - just need to ensure you eat plant based foods that have the nutrients you need and supplement accordingly. 1) https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 "As noted above, a well-planned and carefully followed vegetarian diet can satisfy the nutrient requirements for infants and children, and thus cause no real concern." 2) https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... "In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet - micro-organisms - without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage. Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear." B12 is not produced by animals. We don't have to kill animals to get B12. So considering all of the above - it's a fact that we don't need meat to survive. So please answer this question for me: If we can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why don't we?
- 4y ago

uxcolumbo 4y ago

> Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. According to a dictionary. I think if we want to have a meaningful debate, we need to stick to certain established definitions and this includes the meaning of suffering. How am I moving the goal post? The topic I'm talking about is that our current global food system and a heavy diet of meat & dairy is considerably contributing towards our biosphere destruction and that this meat & dairy diet causes unnecessary cruelty towards other animals. > It's just that all that stuff you say is mad. What is mad about listening to scientists? What is mad about finding ways to not destroy our biosphere? What is mad about not killing and exploiting other sentient beings when we don't need to? Whay is mad about not creating a horrific industry (slaughterhouses) that gives people PTSD? > I linked to a bunch of those above [...] Vegan diest are not healthy. Then why do health and nutrition experts disagree with you? Are you a doctor or health expert? Why does The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics say ""Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment" Why does the UN and IPCC recommend a more plant-based diet? You linked to the following sites and both of them said there are no real concerns with a vegan diet - just need to ensure you eat plant based foods that have the nutrients you need and supplement accordingly. 1) https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 "As noted above, a well-planned and carefully followed vegetarian diet can satisfy the nutrient requirements for infants and children, and thus cause no real concern." 2) https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... "In choosing to use fortified foods or B12 supplements, vegans are taking their B12 from the same source as every other animal on the planet - micro-organisms - without causing suffering to any sentient being or causing environmental damage. Vegans using adequate amounts of fortified foods or B12 supplements are much less likely to suffer from B12 deficiency than the typical meat eater. The Institute of Medicine, in setting the US recommended intakes for B12 makes this very clear." B12 is not produced by animals. We don't have to kill animals to get B12. So considering all of the above - it's a fact that we don't need meat to survive. So please answer this question for me: If we can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why don't we?

4y ago