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> Are you implying they're much less terrible? It's outright benine. No need to frame it in a negative way (« much less terrible »). > I like to say that vapi

by Bayart 4y ago

> Are you implying they're much less terrible? It's outright benine. No need to frame it in a negative way (« much less terrible »). > I like to say that vaping is slightly less terrible than combustible cigarettes because it is very clear that you. should. not vape. unless. you. smoke. cigarettes. Sure. And vaping shouldn't be made to look dubious or suspicious to smokers who would otherwise wildly profit from switching off cigarettes. Drawing an equivalency relationship between smoking and vaping is really bad from a public health perspective.

pclark 4y ago
I'm not sure what your point is but i'll just repeat: if you do not smoke combustible cigarettes do not vape. People can debate if vaping or nicotine is good or bad or moot from a health point of view but a simple salient fact is: A small percentage of people who never smoked cigarettes before start to vape and then switch to combustible cigarettes. That is bad.
- OkayPhysicist 4y ago
  That is a truly miniscule group of the population, to the point where I would wager that those people would have eventually ended up smoking even in a world where vaping didn't exist. The benefits of vaping over smoking even ignoring health concerns are simply massive. It doesn't smell nearly as offensive, it's vastly more palatable, you don't need to litter or look for an ever-dissapearing batch of ashtrays, there's vastly less social stigma, and if you're so inclined you can get much heavier nicotine hit.
- Bayart 4y ago
  I'm sure it happens. But I'm not sure it's statistically relevant and deserves tailoring public discourse around. It just sounds like « think of the children » nonsense to me. I've certainly never seen it happen. In fact I've never seen anybody vape who wasn't previously a smoker, that just doesn't exist in my area. That's anecdotal, but I doubt you're basing your opinion off broad empirical data either.
  - pclark 4y ago
    I am basing my opinion on data. The nicotine industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars per year on studies discussing the incrementality of "years of life saved from switching to vaping from combustible cigarettes minus the years of life cost from net new people starting to consume nicotine" Also this comment is correct that a poorly regulated and operated vaping industry fuelled a youth nicotine crisis: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836842
    - meowface 4y ago
      >youth nicotine crisis What are we doing to address the nation's ongoing caffeine crisis? You seem to have a particular fixation on nicotine and haven't taken an opportunity to look at any of the counter-evidence a dozen different people in this thread have tried to show you. The primary enemy here is inhalation of combusted materials, followed by inhalation of just about anything, followed by nicotine. Cigarette smoking is a crisis. People applying nicotine patches will almost certainly never be a crisis. Trying to conflate the two, as you're doing, doesn't make sense. Trying to conflate tobacco smoking and nicotine vaping is slightly less senseless, but still irresponsible. There absolutely is a massive risk of people who've never smoked starting with vaping and then moving to cigarettes, but you're only falling back to that as a motte to your "nicotine is a harmful molecule" bailey and aren't making it the center of your argument.
      - pclark 4y ago
        Good grief — for one thing, teenagers vaping is a crisis. That alone appears to render your entire comment moot, but I'll add that all of my comments today have been incredibly consistent: smoking cigarettes is really really really bad and vaping nicotine is really bad (because its addictive, there are longterm implications of inhaling nicotine, ...) - to put it another way, if you smoke combustible cigarettes then you should switch to vaping ASAP. But if you do not smoke combustible cigarettes do not start vaping because nicotine is highly addictive! PS: equating nicotine to caffeine is incredibly stupid and offensive towards the millions of people that battle nicotine addiction every day.
- sophacles 4y ago
  OMG, now that you put it that way, you're right! People making personal choices you disagree with is the worst thing ever!

by Bayart 4y ago

pclark 4y ago

I'm not sure what your point is but i'll just repeat: if you do not smoke combustible cigarettes do not vape. People can debate if vaping or nicotine is good or bad or moot from a health point of view but a simple salient fact is: A small percentage of people who never smoked cigarettes before start to vape and then switch to combustible cigarettes. That is bad.

OkayPhysicist 4y ago
That is a truly miniscule group of the population, to the point where I would wager that those people would have eventually ended up smoking even in a world where vaping didn't exist. The benefits of vaping over smoking even ignoring health concerns are simply massive. It doesn't smell nearly as offensive, it's vastly more palatable, you don't need to litter or look for an ever-dissapearing batch of ashtrays, there's vastly less social stigma, and if you're so inclined you can get much heavier nicotine hit.
Bayart 4y ago
I'm sure it happens. But I'm not sure it's statistically relevant and deserves tailoring public discourse around. It just sounds like « think of the children » nonsense to me. I've certainly never seen it happen. In fact I've never seen anybody vape who wasn't previously a smoker, that just doesn't exist in my area. That's anecdotal, but I doubt you're basing your opinion off broad empirical data either.
- pclark 4y ago
  I am basing my opinion on data. The nicotine industry spends hundreds of millions of dollars per year on studies discussing the incrementality of "years of life saved from switching to vaping from combustible cigarettes minus the years of life cost from net new people starting to consume nicotine" Also this comment is correct that a poorly regulated and operated vaping industry fuelled a youth nicotine crisis: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836842 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31836842
  - meowface 4y ago
    >youth nicotine crisis What are we doing to address the nation's ongoing caffeine crisis? You seem to have a particular fixation on nicotine and haven't taken an opportunity to look at any of the counter-evidence a dozen different people in this thread have tried to show you. The primary enemy here is inhalation of combusted materials, followed by inhalation of just about anything, followed by nicotine. Cigarette smoking is a crisis. People applying nicotine patches will almost certainly never be a crisis. Trying to conflate the two, as you're doing, doesn't make sense. Trying to conflate tobacco smoking and nicotine vaping is slightly less senseless, but still irresponsible. There absolutely is a massive risk of people who've never smoked starting with vaping and then moving to cigarettes, but you're only falling back to that as a motte to your "nicotine is a harmful molecule" bailey and aren't making it the center of your argument.
    - pclark 4y ago
      Good grief — for one thing, teenagers vaping is a crisis. That alone appears to render your entire comment moot, but I'll add that all of my comments today have been incredibly consistent: smoking cigarettes is really really really bad and vaping nicotine is really bad (because its addictive, there are longterm implications of inhaling nicotine, ...) - to put it another way, if you smoke combustible cigarettes then you should switch to vaping ASAP. But if you do not smoke combustible cigarettes do not start vaping because nicotine is highly addictive! PS: equating nicotine to caffeine is incredibly stupid and offensive towards the millions of people that battle nicotine addiction every day.
sophacles 4y ago
OMG, now that you put it that way, you're right! People making personal choices you disagree with is the worst thing ever!