9 ms·

R.L. Stine and Ghostwriters (2012)

41 points by maxwell 4y ago

acc_vector 4y ago
This is very lazily researched, a few minutes in google will give you pretty clear confirmation that he did in fact use several contracted ghostwriters. This was brought up by Scholastic publishing as evidence of breach of contract when they sued Parachute Press back in 1999. See this link for the court filings [0], note here that RL's representatives do not deny the claim that the ghostwriters were employed by RL but instead that the use of them did not suffice to constitute breach of contract. So he has essentially via his legal representation confirmed that to varying degrees he did not in fact write many of the books past the first 20. Instead, this filing shows that he often wrote outlines which he then passed onto other contractors. Scholastic claims here that they lost substantial amounts of revenue because the ghostwriters did not write stories as well as RL. [0] https://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/NYSComDiv/Oct02/600512-99-003.PDF https://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/NYSComDiv/Oct02/600512-...
- elliekelly 4y ago
  It’s a blog post from a decade ago. It’s not “researched” because it’s more like a journal entry (or a tweet, perhaps) than an “article” the way blog posts are often viewed now. It’s purpose isn’t to deliver readers a definitive answer but to spur discussion and get readers thinking. I might even go so far as to say the answer to the author’s question is entirely irrelevant.
  - autoexec 4y ago
    > It’s purpose isn’t to deliver readers a definitive answer but to spur discussion and get readers thinking. What is this supposed to get people thinking about beyond "Did R.L. Stine use ghostwriters for his Goosebumps and Fear Street series?" It's pretty much the only thing brought up in the post. How could the answer to that question be irrelevant? I'll admit that this reads like a journal entry and it's pointless to try to hold a random blogger to the research expectations we might have for actual journalists, but if this post was intended to get people thinking or engaged in discussion there's really not much there to work with outside of the "Did R.L. Stine use ghostwriters for his Goosebumps and Fear Street series?" question which makes the answer pretty relevant. If this post was intended to provoke discussion or thought it might have been better to address the concept of ghostwriting. The morality of ghostwriting, the impact it has on the quality of literature, the importance of branding, the economics of it etc. As it is, there's not much food for thought.
    - elliekelly 4y ago
      > What is this supposed to get people thinking about beyond "Did R.L. Stine use ghostwriters for his Goosebumps and Fear Street series?" Perhaps the comments in this very thread might give you an idea of the sort of thoughts the blog post provokes...
      - autoexec 4y ago
        Let's see... right now we have the actual answer to the question right up top (as expected) then near the bottom some discussion on the wisdom of Captain Picard and the sleeping and vacationing habits of Bill Gates, and in the middle some general commentary on the Goosebumps books (they don't hold up/helped someone learn English), and even on ghostwriting in general, but I'm pretty sure we're doing all the heavy lifting here. With the exception of posts about the question in question, it's pretty much what I'd expect people to come up with from the title alone.
CSMastermind 4y ago
I recently reread all of the Goosebumps books and I'll warn anyone inspired to do so by seeing this headline: they don't hold up as an adult. And I say that as someone who really loved them as a kid. With that said, the Animorphs books are all being rereleased as audio books and they've been a pleasure to listen to.
- 0des 4y ago
  I was hoping someone would mention Animorphs :) The Andalite Chronicles definitely merits another read as well.
  - kjeetgill 4y ago
    I can see and smell my half sun-faded copy of Andalite Chronicles as soon as you mentioned it. It was my first Animorph book and though I loved them only the Hork-Bajir Chronicles held up. My next jump was to Mossflower and Redwall!
    - 0des 4y ago
      Thanks for the reminder :) I was just thinking of Mariel not too long ago. I should see if the library has it.
    - CSMastermind 4y ago
      Oh man, all my childhood favorites :) I've also reread all the Redwall books as an adult and it was amazing. Be aware that they didn't make audiobooks for all the books so if you're planning on listening, you'll have to read at least some of thing in book form. Also they didn't make hardcovers for everything which is annoying if you're collecting them to sit on a bookshelf.
      - eunoia 4y ago
        Eulalia!
      - Handytinge 4y ago
musicale 4y ago
If we could only lock George R.R. Martin in a room with Brandon Sanderson, R.L. Stine, and a team of ghostwriters...
- BearOso 4y ago
  I've never understood the reasoning behind this. Creativity can't be forced. The books and world are a product of GRRM's thoughts and state of mind. If you have someone else write it, or push him to hurry against his desire, the end product just won't be the same. I'd rather get nothing than a book coaxed into existence or written by someone else.
bombcar 4y ago
Even if he did use them, there have been cases of authors being able to pump out books at very rapid rates, especially if they're all of a certain "type".
- jermaustin1 4y ago
  Nora Roberts is a romance author, and she has penned over 225 novels. Her books average 100k words, so a pretty good feat for only 40 years (roughly 1 book every 2 months). She has claimed that she has no ghosts, and I feel inclined to believe her.
- bitexploder 4y ago
  See: Brandon Sanderson. Insanely prolific and pretty creative author. He somehow wrote even more during the pandemic. It is absolutely conceivable someone could write the R.L Stine books at that pace. I bet Sanderson has written way more published words than Stine did at this point given that the Stine books are all relatively short.
  - InitialLastName 4y ago
    > I bet Sanderson has written way more published words than Stine did at this point given that the Stine books are all relatively short. If you consider the notion that brevity is one of the more difficult parts of writing (and look at Sanderson's output), it's entirely possible that Sanderson's "more words" isn't evidence of "more work". Accounting for quality, it could be counter-evidence.
  - potta_coffee 4y ago
    Brandon Sanderson should write a lot less though, or at least hire a decent editor. His story ideas are good but there's a lot of superfluous, boring junk that needs to be removed.
    - bitexploder 4y ago
      Still, Stine was not writing anything special. He had a formula and followed it. I think it is a question of productivity. I do think some of Sanderson’s series are tightly edited and others he lets things bloat a bit (Stormlight Archive, sigh).
hammock 4y ago
Eons ago when I first learned what a ghostwriter was, Goosebumps was immediately what I thought of
- ghaff 4y ago
  Not exactly ghostwriting but the classic example is the Stratemeyer Syndicate which produced a huge number of YA books (Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew) by pseudonymous authors.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Ironically not the contemporary Ghostwriter book series.
AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
I could see it going either way. Not to knock the series--I greatly enjoyed them as a child--but there was a solid cookie-cutter formula that they all followed by Vol. 30 or so. For every good one there were about 2-3 that were mediocre, and at least one that could have started its life as a Mad Lib. I get the feeling that if R.L. Stine got to the point that he could pound one of these volumes out in a week, he could have easily trained someone else how to do it, as well.
- mccolin 4y ago
  Book series targeted at young readers benefit from this composition. My 8yo son follows a few series and he laughs about it when "the formula" reveals itself, but still enjoys the stories. You have to remember a novel – even a short one like a Goosebumps book – is a lot to keep in context as you're starting out reading. The predictable ebbs and flows of a series book help readers focus on the language and the things that are unique about each issue and mystery. When we together read longer books that can't be consumed as quickly – like a Harry Potter novel – he has to work with me to remind himself about the callbacks and references to follow along with the increased nuance. I loved the Goosebumps books as a kid and they will always hold a special place in my heart. It's a shame the basic structure makes it hard to enjoy them as much on a reread as an adult, but that was never the point.
d136o 4y ago
When my family arrived to Miami in 1999 one of the first things we did was make use of the public library. I checked out probably every goosebump book as I learned English. Thank you R.L. Stine, I learned English as a 10 year old by reading every single one of your spooky stories.
debacle 4y ago
When it comes to kids, one of the worst things you can do is create the misleading illusion of "hard work and dedication." This applies to Bill Gates, Lance Armstrong (and many other professional athletes), Donald Trump, Jennifer Lawrence, RL Stine, KA Applegate, etc. I don't mean to take anything from these folks. Success, even if you have a leg up or game the system, does require a lot of effort and sacrifice, but I think if we had more integrity around the other pieces of the puzzle, it would drastically change how we view success in this country. One of the things I like about Twitch is that you can see the full spectrum of talent and success. In the Music category, the difference in musical talent between someone with 5000 viewers and someone with 100 viewers is almost nonexistent, but the production value, allure, niche, etc all plays a huge factor.
- bitshiftfaced 4y ago
  For many kids, the difference between a 'C' and an 'A' is very much "hard work and dedication." Sometimes they may not try hard, and still get an A+. Sometimes they'll work hard and still get a 'C', but hard work and grades usually correlate, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure you're not saying that we should teach or kids that cheating on their test every now and then is a good way to be successful.
- caconym_ 4y ago
  I think this is more about teaching kids the universality and importance of marketing. If you want to develop a creative skill to the point where strangers will seek out and consume your work (let alone pay for the privilege of doing so) you'll need to work your ass off for years regardless of how well you end up marketing the results.
- jdsully 4y ago
  Bill gates was known for sleeping under desks at the office and didn’t really take a vacation till he was 30. I’m not sure why you’d use him as an example that hard work doesn’t pay off.
  - SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
    Even with those stories it's more of an example of survivorship bias than him earning his immense wealth. There is no actual link between "sleeping under your desk" and "becoming a billionaire".
cm2012 4y ago
Goosebumps books are very short (23000 words each), it is very conceivable that he wrote them all himself. Here's a chart of words written by prolific authors (Wildbow added in here is the author of a bunch of Web Serials like Worm, Pale, etc.): https://i.redd.it/cviz2vld5t461.png https://i.redd.it/cviz2vld5t461.png Wildbow right now writes about 22,000 words a week, or ~one goosebumps book to completion. That said, I suspect Stein did have them ghost written only because it would be so. tedious. to write the same story over and over.
- tcmart14 4y ago
  Daily dose of depression when I look at that graph, see Rothfuss's line and thinking about the 5 years I have been waiting for book 3.
  - saalweachter 4y ago
    Only five years?
- jabroni_salad 4y ago
  Wildbow is being matched by pirateaba's Wandering Inn these days. https://wanderinginn.neocities.org/statistics.html https://wanderinginn.neocities.org/statistics.html
- ghaff 4y ago
  >22,000 words a week Which, to be clear, is a lot. As someone who writes non-fiction (but less straightforward than technical docs) and is considered fast, I find about 2,000 words a day about my limit without doing any research etc. I know a few trade journalists who probably crank out a bit more. But even if you're literally writing every day of every week, an average of 22,000 words per week is a real stretch and I have to believe would be hard to sustain. That said, a few people can do it. In the UK, Enid Blyton was a ridiculously prolific writer of young adult novels over the course of many years.
  - 0des 4y ago
dehrmann 4y ago
Seems like something ML should be able to answer.
- socrates1024 4y ago
  Write an M.L. Stine book is probably a good gpt-3 prompt
  - idiotsecant 4y ago
    If any machine learning algorithm could write a convincing R.L. Stine book I think I'd call it pretty close to a general intelligence!
bigmattystyles 4y ago
"Ghostwriters" is fun to use here.... I disagreed with this part though -> However, his downfall is his willingness to sell himself out. By the mid-1990s every month at least two titles (if not more) baring Stine's name on the front cover would be released in bookstores across the globe. God forbid he try to cash in.... It doesn't mention what they mean by his downfall or even allude to poor reception or that the quality went down. I aged out of goosebumps when they were still new to the scene, so I have no idea what the author is talking about.
- gompertz 4y ago
  A lot of people are allergic to making money and feel others should be too.
  - mikechalmers 4y ago
    I inferred the blogger meant quality suffered when Stine was spread thin, which I'd agree with as an avid Goosebumps fan of that era.
  - bryanrasmussen 4y ago
    more like there is a common trope in criticism that prolificity necessarily weakens the quality of output, like if creativity were sperm then writing more would mean you were shooting blanks. This is probably true for some people, but it does fly against the idea that to improve as a writer you should write more. Also relates to the idea that some people have a limited number of ideas or tropes and producing too much will mean going to that same source too many times, or that artists are better poor and struggling but once successful they become worn out and repetitive.
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]

41 points by maxwell 4y ago

This is very lazily researched, a few minutes in google will give you pretty clear confirmation that he did in fact use several contracted ghostwriters. This was brought up by Scholastic publishing as evidence of breach of contract when they sued Parachute Press back in 1999. See this link for the court filings [0], note here that RL's representatives do not deny the claim that the ghostwriters were employed by RL but instead that the use of them did not suffice to constitute breach of contract. So he has essentially via his legal representation confirmed that to varying degrees he did not in fact write many of the books past the first 20. Instead, this filing shows that he often wrote outlines which he then passed onto other contractors. Scholastic claims here that they lost substantial amounts of revenue because the ghostwriters did not write stories as well as RL. [0] https://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/NYSComDiv/Oct02/600512-99-003.PDF https://decisions.courts.state.ny.us/NYSComDiv/Oct02/600512-...

elliekelly 4y ago
It’s a blog post from a decade ago. It’s not “researched” because it’s more like a journal entry (or a tweet, perhaps) than an “article” the way blog posts are often viewed now. It’s purpose isn’t to deliver readers a definitive answer but to spur discussion and get readers thinking. I might even go so far as to say the answer to the author’s question is entirely irrelevant.
- autoexec 4y ago
  > It’s purpose isn’t to deliver readers a definitive answer but to spur discussion and get readers thinking. What is this supposed to get people thinking about beyond "Did R.L. Stine use ghostwriters for his Goosebumps and Fear Street series?" It's pretty much the only thing brought up in the post. How could the answer to that question be irrelevant? I'll admit that this reads like a journal entry and it's pointless to try to hold a random blogger to the research expectations we might have for actual journalists, but if this post was intended to get people thinking or engaged in discussion there's really not much there to work with outside of the "Did R.L. Stine use ghostwriters for his Goosebumps and Fear Street series?" question which makes the answer pretty relevant. If this post was intended to provoke discussion or thought it might have been better to address the concept of ghostwriting. The morality of ghostwriting, the impact it has on the quality of literature, the importance of branding, the economics of it etc. As it is, there's not much food for thought.
  - elliekelly 4y ago
    > What is this supposed to get people thinking about beyond "Did R.L. Stine use ghostwriters for his Goosebumps and Fear Street series?" Perhaps the comments in this very thread might give you an idea of the sort of thoughts the blog post provokes...
    - autoexec 4y ago
      Let's see... right now we have the actual answer to the question right up top (as expected) then near the bottom some discussion on the wisdom of Captain Picard and the sleeping and vacationing habits of Bill Gates, and in the middle some general commentary on the Goosebumps books (they don't hold up/helped someone learn English), and even on ghostwriting in general, but I'm pretty sure we're doing all the heavy lifting here. With the exception of posts about the question in question, it's pretty much what I'd expect people to come up with from the title alone.

CSMastermind 4y ago

I recently reread all of the Goosebumps books and I'll warn anyone inspired to do so by seeing this headline: they don't hold up as an adult. And I say that as someone who really loved them as a kid. With that said, the Animorphs books are all being rereleased as audio books and they've been a pleasure to listen to.

0des 4y ago
I was hoping someone would mention Animorphs :) The Andalite Chronicles definitely merits another read as well.
- kjeetgill 4y ago
  I can see and smell my half sun-faded copy of Andalite Chronicles as soon as you mentioned it. It was my first Animorph book and though I loved them only the Hork-Bajir Chronicles held up. My next jump was to Mossflower and Redwall!
  - 0des 4y ago
    Thanks for the reminder :) I was just thinking of Mariel not too long ago. I should see if the library has it.
  - CSMastermind 4y ago
    Oh man, all my childhood favorites :) I've also reread all the Redwall books as an adult and it was amazing. Be aware that they didn't make audiobooks for all the books so if you're planning on listening, you'll have to read at least some of thing in book form. Also they didn't make hardcovers for everything which is annoying if you're collecting them to sit on a bookshelf.
    - eunoia 4y ago
      Eulalia!
    - Handytinge 4y ago

musicale 4y ago

If we could only lock George R.R. Martin in a room with Brandon Sanderson, R.L. Stine, and a team of ghostwriters...

BearOso 4y ago
I've never understood the reasoning behind this. Creativity can't be forced. The books and world are a product of GRRM's thoughts and state of mind. If you have someone else write it, or push him to hurry against his desire, the end product just won't be the same. I'd rather get nothing than a book coaxed into existence or written by someone else.

bombcar 4y ago

Even if he did use them, there have been cases of authors being able to pump out books at very rapid rates, especially if they're all of a certain "type".

jermaustin1 4y ago
Nora Roberts is a romance author, and she has penned over 225 novels. Her books average 100k words, so a pretty good feat for only 40 years (roughly 1 book every 2 months). She has claimed that she has no ghosts, and I feel inclined to believe her.
bitexploder 4y ago
See: Brandon Sanderson. Insanely prolific and pretty creative author. He somehow wrote even more during the pandemic. It is absolutely conceivable someone could write the R.L Stine books at that pace. I bet Sanderson has written way more published words than Stine did at this point given that the Stine books are all relatively short.
- InitialLastName 4y ago
  > I bet Sanderson has written way more published words than Stine did at this point given that the Stine books are all relatively short. If you consider the notion that brevity is one of the more difficult parts of writing (and look at Sanderson's output), it's entirely possible that Sanderson's "more words" isn't evidence of "more work". Accounting for quality, it could be counter-evidence.
- potta_coffee 4y ago
  Brandon Sanderson should write a lot less though, or at least hire a decent editor. His story ideas are good but there's a lot of superfluous, boring junk that needs to be removed.
  - bitexploder 4y ago
    Still, Stine was not writing anything special. He had a formula and followed it. I think it is a question of productivity. I do think some of Sanderson’s series are tightly edited and others he lets things bloat a bit (Stormlight Archive, sigh).

hammock 4y ago

Eons ago when I first learned what a ghostwriter was, Goosebumps was immediately what I thought of

ghaff 4y ago
Not exactly ghostwriting but the classic example is the Stratemeyer Syndicate which produced a huge number of YA books (Tom Swift, Hardy Boys, Nancy Drew) by pseudonymous authors.
SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
Ironically not the contemporary Ghostwriter book series.

AdmiralAsshat 4y ago

I could see it going either way. Not to knock the series--I greatly enjoyed them as a child--but there was a solid cookie-cutter formula that they all followed by Vol. 30 or so. For every good one there were about 2-3 that were mediocre, and at least one that could have started its life as a Mad Lib. I get the feeling that if R.L. Stine got to the point that he could pound one of these volumes out in a week, he could have easily trained someone else how to do it, as well.

mccolin 4y ago
Book series targeted at young readers benefit from this composition. My 8yo son follows a few series and he laughs about it when "the formula" reveals itself, but still enjoys the stories. You have to remember a novel – even a short one like a Goosebumps book – is a lot to keep in context as you're starting out reading. The predictable ebbs and flows of a series book help readers focus on the language and the things that are unique about each issue and mystery. When we together read longer books that can't be consumed as quickly – like a Harry Potter novel – he has to work with me to remind himself about the callbacks and references to follow along with the increased nuance. I loved the Goosebumps books as a kid and they will always hold a special place in my heart. It's a shame the basic structure makes it hard to enjoy them as much on a reread as an adult, but that was never the point.

d136o 4y ago

When my family arrived to Miami in 1999 one of the first things we did was make use of the public library. I checked out probably every goosebump book as I learned English. Thank you R.L. Stine, I learned English as a 10 year old by reading every single one of your spooky stories.

debacle 4y ago

When it comes to kids, one of the worst things you can do is create the misleading illusion of "hard work and dedication." This applies to Bill Gates, Lance Armstrong (and many other professional athletes), Donald Trump, Jennifer Lawrence, RL Stine, KA Applegate, etc. I don't mean to take anything from these folks. Success, even if you have a leg up or game the system, does require a lot of effort and sacrifice, but I think if we had more integrity around the other pieces of the puzzle, it would drastically change how we view success in this country. One of the things I like about Twitch is that you can see the full spectrum of talent and success. In the Music category, the difference in musical talent between someone with 5000 viewers and someone with 100 viewers is almost nonexistent, but the production value, allure, niche, etc all plays a huge factor.

bitshiftfaced 4y ago
For many kids, the difference between a 'C' and an 'A' is very much "hard work and dedication." Sometimes they may not try hard, and still get an A+. Sometimes they'll work hard and still get a 'C', but hard work and grades usually correlate, wouldn't you agree? I'm sure you're not saying that we should teach or kids that cheating on their test every now and then is a good way to be successful.
caconym_ 4y ago
I think this is more about teaching kids the universality and importance of marketing. If you want to develop a creative skill to the point where strangers will seek out and consume your work (let alone pay for the privilege of doing so) you'll need to work your ass off for years regardless of how well you end up marketing the results.
jdsully 4y ago
Bill gates was known for sleeping under desks at the office and didn’t really take a vacation till he was 30. I’m not sure why you’d use him as an example that hard work doesn’t pay off.
- SketchySeaBeast 4y ago
  Even with those stories it's more of an example of survivorship bias than him earning his immense wealth. There is no actual link between "sleeping under your desk" and "becoming a billionaire".

cm2012 4y ago

Goosebumps books are very short (23000 words each), it is very conceivable that he wrote them all himself. Here's a chart of words written by prolific authors (Wildbow added in here is the author of a bunch of Web Serials like Worm, Pale, etc.): https://i.redd.it/cviz2vld5t461.png https://i.redd.it/cviz2vld5t461.png Wildbow right now writes about 22,000 words a week, or ~one goosebumps book to completion. That said, I suspect Stein did have them ghost written only because it would be so. tedious. to write the same story over and over.

tcmart14 4y ago
Daily dose of depression when I look at that graph, see Rothfuss's line and thinking about the 5 years I have been waiting for book 3.
- saalweachter 4y ago
  Only five years?
jabroni_salad 4y ago
Wildbow is being matched by pirateaba's Wandering Inn these days. https://wanderinginn.neocities.org/statistics.html https://wanderinginn.neocities.org/statistics.html
ghaff 4y ago
>22,000 words a week Which, to be clear, is a lot. As someone who writes non-fiction (but less straightforward than technical docs) and is considered fast, I find about 2,000 words a day about my limit without doing any research etc. I know a few trade journalists who probably crank out a bit more. But even if you're literally writing every day of every week, an average of 22,000 words per week is a real stretch and I have to believe would be hard to sustain. That said, a few people can do it. In the UK, Enid Blyton was a ridiculously prolific writer of young adult novels over the course of many years.
- 0des 4y ago

dehrmann 4y ago

Seems like something ML should be able to answer.

socrates1024 4y ago
Write an M.L. Stine book is probably a good gpt-3 prompt
- idiotsecant 4y ago
  If any machine learning algorithm could write a convincing R.L. Stine book I think I'd call it pretty close to a general intelligence!

bigmattystyles 4y ago

"Ghostwriters" is fun to use here.... I disagreed with this part though -> However, his downfall is his willingness to sell himself out. By the mid-1990s every month at least two titles (if not more) baring Stine's name on the front cover would be released in bookstores across the globe. God forbid he try to cash in.... It doesn't mention what they mean by his downfall or even allude to poor reception or that the quality went down. I aged out of goosebumps when they were still new to the scene, so I have no idea what the author is talking about.

gompertz 4y ago
A lot of people are allergic to making money and feel others should be too.
- mikechalmers 4y ago
  I inferred the blogger meant quality suffered when Stine was spread thin, which I'd agree with as an avid Goosebumps fan of that era.
- bryanrasmussen 4y ago
  more like there is a common trope in criticism that prolificity necessarily weakens the quality of output, like if creativity were sperm then writing more would mean you were shooting blanks. This is probably true for some people, but it does fly against the idea that to improve as a writer you should write more. Also relates to the idea that some people have a limited number of ideas or tropes and producing too much will mean going to that same source too many times, or that artists are better poor and struggling but once successful they become worn out and repetitive.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]