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> I wonder how many current masterpieces, from antiquity, were created by having 20 apprentices pump out blades, and just picking the best out of 1000 blades fo

> I wonder how many current masterpieces, from antiquity, were created by having 20 apprentices pump out blades, and just picking the best out of 1000 blades for a respected client. Probably 0. Swords were not that random. High quality swords would either be made from Wootz/Crucible steel, which was an expensive resource (but relatively easy to forge into a good blade) or by using various folding methods, that was immensively labour intensive. A smith would not have apprentices produce 1000s of such blades. That would be too expensive.. Low quality swords would be produced using less labour intensive methods, and sold in larger numbers. These production methods would ensure that they would not reach the highest level of quality. Top-quality swords would be made very carefully by or under supervision from a master, in much smaller numbers. Some of these may not have had obvious flaws, but not 99.9%.

hef19898 4y ago
Steel, regardless of quality, was an expensive commodity up until the early 20th century. Up to then iron to steel ratios were roughly around 9:1, maybe even with a higher iron rate in pre-modern periods. Then it flipped, and today you have a hard time to get simple iron at all. One of the reasons steel weapons were reforged, faulty blades reworked. And handles, as well as the inner parts of the blades, used to be iron. Also in Japan sometimes. Simply because it is cheaper, and the sharp edges between handle and blade are less brittle and this less critical during heat treatment. And heat treatment of non-standardized steel is a black art indeed. That being said, European blade making was shared enterprise since the earliest days. One general contractor signed with a customer, then he sub-contracted a smith for the blade, one for the cross guard and handle, one for polishibg, one for scabards and, if was not the same guy, one for assembly. That's were the english word cuttlery comes from. Otherwise a single smith would produce maybe a dozen blades per year, maybe even less. Not even close to what was needed.
- trashtester 4y ago
  This list of medieval prices lists two swords: https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm One costs 1625 shilling, or less than the cost of a female slave. The other costs 24000, more than the price of 9 female slaves. Clearly, for the second sword, the steel was not the main part of the cost.
  - com2kid 4y ago
    > https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm As an aside, that website is a great example of what the web used to be. Absurdly informative, fun to browse, and obviously a labor of love.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Same as today, I once investigated how to buy a new, but tradionally forged, Katana. Turned out that a) antiques are cheaper and b) the mounting (simple wood vs tsuba and all) can double the price, easily. Like modern day cars, the options drive the price even if the engine / blade are the same...
    - trashtester 4y ago
      Compared to the price of female slaves, blades have become cheaper, though. I could only afford one female, and as it turns out, she expects me to be HER slave :)
- dreamcompiler 4y ago
  > Then it flipped, and today you have a hard time to get simple iron at all. Very true. Simple elemental iron is extremely hard to find; possibly because nobody wants it. (Whenever you see phrases like "wrought iron" or "cast iron" or "ornamental iron" today that's all steel, not true iron.) The best source I've found for true iron is wagon tires. These are the metal bands that were wrapped around wooden wagon wheels in the 1800s, and many of them are pure iron. Sometimes you can find them at antique stores or in a farmer's field. They survive long after the original wagon has rotted. They're always very rusty but that's no big deal. Why would you want simple iron? Because it's very soft and much easier to work than steel. And if you cut into it slightly and bend it at the cut, you'll see the marvelously beautiful huge crystal structure that only true iron possesses. It's wonderful stuff; just not very durable compared to steel.
  - kragen 4y ago
    You can buy pure electrolytic iron powder from powder-metallurgy vendors. It's of course not 100% pure but it's a lot purer than 19th-century iron tires. Iron is hard to purify. This is partly because it's so enthusiastic about reacting with other elements. It's like the Oprah Winfrey of elements, or the gender-swapped version of oxygen: "You get an electron, and you get an electron, and you get an electron! Everybody! gets! an! electron!" Worse, in nature it's always hanging out with its buddies manganese and nickel, and they're hard to separate. It's not as bad as zirconium and hafnium, but almost. It wasn't until the 01930s that reasonably pure iron was produced, and it was found that it was much softer than anyone had previously suspected.
    - dreamcompiler 4y ago
      I should clarify that my desire for iron is in the form of bars that I can work in my blacksmith shop, and iron in that form is hard to find in my experience. I'm sure chemical-grade iron is available but melting iron powder into ingots in an oxygen-free environment is beyond my capabilities ATM.
      - kragen 4y ago

hef19898 4y ago

Steel, regardless of quality, was an expensive commodity up until the early 20th century. Up to then iron to steel ratios were roughly around 9:1, maybe even with a higher iron rate in pre-modern periods. Then it flipped, and today you have a hard time to get simple iron at all. One of the reasons steel weapons were reforged, faulty blades reworked. And handles, as well as the inner parts of the blades, used to be iron. Also in Japan sometimes. Simply because it is cheaper, and the sharp edges between handle and blade are less brittle and this less critical during heat treatment. And heat treatment of non-standardized steel is a black art indeed. That being said, European blade making was shared enterprise since the earliest days. One general contractor signed with a customer, then he sub-contracted a smith for the blade, one for the cross guard and handle, one for polishibg, one for scabards and, if was not the same guy, one for assembly. That's were the english word cuttlery comes from. Otherwise a single smith would produce maybe a dozen blades per year, maybe even less. Not even close to what was needed.

trashtester 4y ago
This list of medieval prices lists two swords: https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm One costs 1625 shilling, or less than the cost of a female slave. The other costs 24000, more than the price of 9 female slaves. Clearly, for the second sword, the steel was not the main part of the cost.
- com2kid 4y ago
  > https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm As an aside, that website is a great example of what the web used to be. Absurdly informative, fun to browse, and obviously a labor of love.
- hef19898 4y ago
  Same as today, I once investigated how to buy a new, but tradionally forged, Katana. Turned out that a) antiques are cheaper and b) the mounting (simple wood vs tsuba and all) can double the price, easily. Like modern day cars, the options drive the price even if the engine / blade are the same...
  - trashtester 4y ago
    Compared to the price of female slaves, blades have become cheaper, though. I could only afford one female, and as it turns out, she expects me to be HER slave :)
dreamcompiler 4y ago
> Then it flipped, and today you have a hard time to get simple iron at all. Very true. Simple elemental iron is extremely hard to find; possibly because nobody wants it. (Whenever you see phrases like "wrought iron" or "cast iron" or "ornamental iron" today that's all steel, not true iron.) The best source I've found for true iron is wagon tires. These are the metal bands that were wrapped around wooden wagon wheels in the 1800s, and many of them are pure iron. Sometimes you can find them at antique stores or in a farmer's field. They survive long after the original wagon has rotted. They're always very rusty but that's no big deal. Why would you want simple iron? Because it's very soft and much easier to work than steel. And if you cut into it slightly and bend it at the cut, you'll see the marvelously beautiful huge crystal structure that only true iron possesses. It's wonderful stuff; just not very durable compared to steel.
- kragen 4y ago
  You can buy pure electrolytic iron powder from powder-metallurgy vendors. It's of course not 100% pure but it's a lot purer than 19th-century iron tires. Iron is hard to purify. This is partly because it's so enthusiastic about reacting with other elements. It's like the Oprah Winfrey of elements, or the gender-swapped version of oxygen: "You get an electron, and you get an electron, and you get an electron! Everybody! gets! an! electron!" Worse, in nature it's always hanging out with its buddies manganese and nickel, and they're hard to separate. It's not as bad as zirconium and hafnium, but almost. It wasn't until the 01930s that reasonably pure iron was produced, and it was found that it was much softer than anyone had previously suspected.
  - dreamcompiler 4y ago
    I should clarify that my desire for iron is in the form of bars that I can work in my blacksmith shop, and iron in that form is hard to find in my experience. I'm sure chemical-grade iron is available but melting iron powder into ingots in an oxygen-free environment is beyond my capabilities ATM.
    - kragen 4y ago