5 ms·

> so need need to get specific steel in specific parts of a blade. This is not quite true. Even today, there are many secrets surrounding metalworking. The hig

> so need need to get specific steel in specific parts of a blade. This is not quite true. Even today, there are many secrets surrounding metalworking. The highest quality "blades" (such as plow blades/moldboards), may have steel with quite diffent qualities in different areas of the blade. The blade may start out as monosteel, but differential exposure to oxygen, carbon or different temperatures in different parts of the blade is a common way to create blades that have different microstructures (crystal structures, chemical bonds, microshapes) as well as a carbon content that can vary within the blade. These helps them to retain an edge better, better avoid scratching, while maximizing durability and minimizing weight and thickness.

hef19898 4y ago
True, but those blades start live as monosteel or, highly expensive specialized and top notch tech, sintered semi finished pieces. The latter is much closer to being a modern version of what the Japanese did than the former. The former can also be done by induction hardening. I researched that a bit a while ago, and it is basically highly controllable hardening for e.g. gears and surface hardening. Metallurgy is quite fascinating.
- b112 4y ago
  Metallurgy is quite fascinating. It is, but with all the above upthread said, I feel I'd probably get a high quality blade, if I just take my mower's 2 foot mulching blade, and use it as a sword. I wonder how many current masterpieces, from antiquity, were created by having 20 apprentices pump out blades, and just picking the best out of 1000 blades for a respected client.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    > I wonder how many current masterpieces, from antiquity, were created by having 20 apprentices pump out blades, and just picking the best out of 1000 blades for a respected client. Probably 0. Swords were not that random. High quality swords would either be made from Wootz/Crucible steel, which was an expensive resource (but relatively easy to forge into a good blade) or by using various folding methods, that was immensively labour intensive. A smith would not have apprentices produce 1000s of such blades. That would be too expensive.. Low quality swords would be produced using less labour intensive methods, and sold in larger numbers. These production methods would ensure that they would not reach the highest level of quality. Top-quality swords would be made very carefully by or under supervision from a master, in much smaller numbers. Some of these may not have had obvious flaws, but not 99.9%.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Steel, regardless of quality, was an expensive commodity up until the early 20th century. Up to then iron to steel ratios were roughly around 9:1, maybe even with a higher iron rate in pre-modern periods. Then it flipped, and today you have a hard time to get simple iron at all. One of the reasons steel weapons were reforged, faulty blades reworked. And handles, as well as the inner parts of the blades, used to be iron. Also in Japan sometimes. Simply because it is cheaper, and the sharp edges between handle and blade are less brittle and this less critical during heat treatment. And heat treatment of non-standardized steel is a black art indeed. That being said, European blade making was shared enterprise since the earliest days. One general contractor signed with a customer, then he sub-contracted a smith for the blade, one for the cross guard and handle, one for polishibg, one for scabards and, if was not the same guy, one for assembly. That's were the english word cuttlery comes from. Otherwise a single smith would produce maybe a dozen blades per year, maybe even less. Not even close to what was needed.
      - trashtester 4y ago
        This list of medieval prices lists two swords: https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm One costs 1625 shilling, or less than the cost of a female slave. The other costs 24000, more than the price of 9 female slaves. Clearly, for the second sword, the steel was not the main part of the cost.
        com2kid 4y ago
        > https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm As an aside, that website is a great example of what the web used to be. Absurdly informative, fun to browse, and obviously a labor of love.
        hef19898 4y ago
        Same as today, I once investigated how to buy a new, but tradionally forged, Katana. Turned out that a) antiques are cheaper and b) the mounting (simple wood vs tsuba and all) can double the price, easily. Like modern day cars, the options drive the price even if the engine / blade are the same...
  - hef19898 4y ago
    I'd pick an old leave spring over the mower blade, but you are right. Doing blades myself right now, I never got why people use old car springs. Sure they are cheap, and there I am and I paid 300 bucks for 6m of 24x8 mm 5071 spring steel straight from a supplier. That's a lot of blades. And medieval blacksmiths would have killed for that steel.
    - dreamcompiler 4y ago
      I use car springs to make tools for my shop but yeah, if I were making blades for sale I'd probably start with the good stuff.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Not that used car springs are bad material wise so. I'm just way to lazy to spend hours hammering into a bar-like shape before I start hammering into the shape I want. Much simpler to start with a proper bar from the beginning. I know a guy who starts usually with a spiral screw for his blades, and those blades are beautiful. Not that I'm representative, I made a couple of blades out of Japanese multi-layer steel. And do have some rather expensive Japanese multi-layer steel bars laying around for later, one in a proper Katana-like structure with an iron back and one with 22 layers of chrom-stainless steel with a middle layer of paper steel, both around 8mm thick. They cost a factor 4 more than the ordinary spring steel I mentioned earlier. But since I don't have the time, nor the skill, to make those raw multi-layer bars myself I bought them for my tries at Katana-like blades. One day that is, I planned my first sword to be done in early 2020 and still didn't get started...

hef19898 4y ago

True, but those blades start live as monosteel or, highly expensive specialized and top notch tech, sintered semi finished pieces. The latter is much closer to being a modern version of what the Japanese did than the former. The former can also be done by induction hardening. I researched that a bit a while ago, and it is basically highly controllable hardening for e.g. gears and surface hardening. Metallurgy is quite fascinating.

b112 4y ago
Metallurgy is quite fascinating. It is, but with all the above upthread said, I feel I'd probably get a high quality blade, if I just take my mower's 2 foot mulching blade, and use it as a sword. I wonder how many current masterpieces, from antiquity, were created by having 20 apprentices pump out blades, and just picking the best out of 1000 blades for a respected client.
- trashtester 4y ago
  > I wonder how many current masterpieces, from antiquity, were created by having 20 apprentices pump out blades, and just picking the best out of 1000 blades for a respected client. Probably 0. Swords were not that random. High quality swords would either be made from Wootz/Crucible steel, which was an expensive resource (but relatively easy to forge into a good blade) or by using various folding methods, that was immensively labour intensive. A smith would not have apprentices produce 1000s of such blades. That would be too expensive.. Low quality swords would be produced using less labour intensive methods, and sold in larger numbers. These production methods would ensure that they would not reach the highest level of quality. Top-quality swords would be made very carefully by or under supervision from a master, in much smaller numbers. Some of these may not have had obvious flaws, but not 99.9%.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    Steel, regardless of quality, was an expensive commodity up until the early 20th century. Up to then iron to steel ratios were roughly around 9:1, maybe even with a higher iron rate in pre-modern periods. Then it flipped, and today you have a hard time to get simple iron at all. One of the reasons steel weapons were reforged, faulty blades reworked. And handles, as well as the inner parts of the blades, used to be iron. Also in Japan sometimes. Simply because it is cheaper, and the sharp edges between handle and blade are less brittle and this less critical during heat treatment. And heat treatment of non-standardized steel is a black art indeed. That being said, European blade making was shared enterprise since the earliest days. One general contractor signed with a customer, then he sub-contracted a smith for the blade, one for the cross guard and handle, one for polishibg, one for scabards and, if was not the same guy, one for assembly. That's were the english word cuttlery comes from. Otherwise a single smith would produce maybe a dozen blades per year, maybe even less. Not even close to what was needed.
    - trashtester 4y ago
      This list of medieval prices lists two swords: https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm One costs 1625 shilling, or less than the cost of a female slave. The other costs 24000, more than the price of 9 female slaves. Clearly, for the second sword, the steel was not the main part of the cost.
      - com2kid 4y ago
        > https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm https://regia.org/research/misc/costs.htm As an aside, that website is a great example of what the web used to be. Absurdly informative, fun to browse, and obviously a labor of love.
      - hef19898 4y ago
        Same as today, I once investigated how to buy a new, but tradionally forged, Katana. Turned out that a) antiques are cheaper and b) the mounting (simple wood vs tsuba and all) can double the price, easily. Like modern day cars, the options drive the price even if the engine / blade are the same...
- hef19898 4y ago
  I'd pick an old leave spring over the mower blade, but you are right. Doing blades myself right now, I never got why people use old car springs. Sure they are cheap, and there I am and I paid 300 bucks for 6m of 24x8 mm 5071 spring steel straight from a supplier. That's a lot of blades. And medieval blacksmiths would have killed for that steel.
  - dreamcompiler 4y ago
    I use car springs to make tools for my shop but yeah, if I were making blades for sale I'd probably start with the good stuff.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      Not that used car springs are bad material wise so. I'm just way to lazy to spend hours hammering into a bar-like shape before I start hammering into the shape I want. Much simpler to start with a proper bar from the beginning. I know a guy who starts usually with a spiral screw for his blades, and those blades are beautiful. Not that I'm representative, I made a couple of blades out of Japanese multi-layer steel. And do have some rather expensive Japanese multi-layer steel bars laying around for later, one in a proper Katana-like structure with an iron back and one with 22 layers of chrom-stainless steel with a middle layer of paper steel, both around 8mm thick. They cost a factor 4 more than the ordinary spring steel I mentioned earlier. But since I don't have the time, nor the skill, to make those raw multi-layer bars myself I bought them for my tries at Katana-like blades. One day that is, I planned my first sword to be done in early 2020 and still didn't get started...