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Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Critics don't get it because they lump it together with "cryptocurrency". While technic

Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Critics don't get it because they lump it together with "cryptocurrency". While technically a cryptocurrency, Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi, scam-like shenanigans that are easily observable in shitcoins. Yes, there is a lot of crazy stuff happening with wash trading - but this is a byproduct of lack of regulation and has nothing to do with the thing that is Bitcoin. Most critics just don't understand what problem Bitcoin solves. They think it has something to do with replacing currency, or sending payments. Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool for billions of people, the likes of which do not browse Hacker News. Those people get Bitcoin instantly. They don't need articles like this one to tell them why their needs are unmet by the traditional finance system. The thing that Bitcoin critics lack is the understanding of credit markets, central banking and manipulation of money - the source of a large number of problems in the world. To them, everything is fine. Reminds me of that meme where the place is on fire and the dog is sitting in the middle of the room - that's the Bitcoin critic.

achow 4y ago
> Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool for billions of people, the likes of which do not browse Hacker News These people are most vulnerable of the lot. They live hand to mouth, don't posses computing devices (may be cheap China smartphone). I cannot fathom how this demography manages bitcoin assets, manages to purchase their basic needs (which is all they can afford) using coins and not to mention this market crash when even millionaires are feeling the pinch.
- hardmoney99 4y ago
  What you describe here is grouping of thousands of different types of demographics into one. The reality is very different depending where you live, and your level of technology access varies. A fleeing Ukrainian is very well versed in Bitcoin - Ukraine has one of the highest levels of adoption. A Nigerian is also very versed in Bitcoin - despite their government's attempt at curtailing use, they still find a way. A kid in Congo may or may not have access to a smart phone - that I have no way of knowing, but I do know that cell phone access is ubiquitous in Africa despite what many imagine or believe. Sure, their needs may be better served by a stable coin, but that does not relieve bitcoin of value. A Salvadorian may or may not understand Bitcoin - but this is like asking the population to understand how your email protocol works - there's a lot to learn. Even in a country like Japan, Bitcoin is becoming a safe haven with the Yen losing 20% of its value when comparing to USD. Going back to the topic of the "most vulnerable", a bank that you and I take for granted is a luxury in many of Africa's nations. Bitcoin is a permission-less banking system. Does it have technological hurdles for the average person to overcome? Yes. But this is all being worked on right now by people I talk to every day. The same way that most people have no idea how SMTP works, you won't really need to understand behind the scenes of Bitcoin. There are various levels of autonomy and people will fall on the spectrum of where they are comfortable, with the level of privacy / security that most fits their Bitcoin education. You might find this short video interesting (only 10 seconds or so): https://twitter.com/HODLneverSODL/status/1518134911244320769?s=20&t=St1zY7CDI-XoQlZvTmBvnQ https://twitter.com/HODLneverSODL/status/1518134911244320769...
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    > A kid in Congo may or may not have access to a smart phone - that I have no way of knowing, ... a bank that you and I take for granted is a luxury in many of Africa's nations. What do you know about the existing problems, that you want to solve? When were you last in the region?
SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
> fincial freedom tool for billions of people, the likes of which do not browse Hacker News. Citation needed (to put it mildly). How is Bitcoin improving on e.g. M-Pesa? Is there much adoption compared to M-Pesa, outside of fantasy? If you're not familiar with M-Pesa, then you don't know this subject at all. > Those people get Bitcoin instantly. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jun/17/jay-z-bitcoin-school-marcy-houses https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jun/17/jay-z-bitcoin-...
- forum_ghost 4y ago
  Nigeria, just one country, has 34 million crypto users. mpesa has 30. 34 > 30 is that much adoption?
  - SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
    I'll assume that like me, you googled that. So, this is technically correct, but: 30 or 34 m users out of 206m isn't the whole market, not close. Nigeria is an outlier, with low M-Pesa adoption as: > The reason why this incredible product (M-Pesa) can’t be replicated in Nigeria with such success is perhaps due to what you and I as Nigerians enjoy today, the Nigerian Interbank Settlement System (NIBSS) https://nairametrics.com/2017/09/26/why-the-m-pesa-miracle-has-failed-to-work-in-nigeria/ https://nairametrics.com/2017/09/26/why-the-m-pesa-miracle-h... https://nibss-plc.com.ng/ https://nibss-plc.com.ng/ https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nigeria-inter-bank-settlement-system https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nigeria-inter-bank-s... So to sum up, the huge Nigerian domestic market is covered by a SEPA-like product. It's not a bitcoin thing. Omitting that seems intentionally misleading.
- olalonde 4y ago
  > How is Bitcoin improving on e.g. M-Pesa? M-Pesa only works in some African countries? And it relies on the benevolence of Vodafone Group and governments?
iLoveOncall 4y ago
> Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi shenanigans Really? How do you call something where there is no underlying product generating value, and you need to have someone else put money in to get your money out? It's literally the definition of a ponzi pyramid.
- hardmoney99 4y ago
  Bitcoin is voluntary. The goal is better money. If you take on that big of a challenge, you kinda need people to participate with their "old" money. It's called adoption. Just like internet would have no value if nobody participated, bitcoin has no value if nobody participates. Do you send email to yourself? No. Do you shop from a non-existing platform? no.
  - NoticeMeSenpai 4y ago
    >Bitcoin is voluntary Scams can be voluntary. >The goal is better money There is no clear path to that goal. >If you take on that big of a challenge, you kinda need people to participate with their "old" money. "Old" as in the USD? >Just like internet would have no value if nobody participated, bitcoin has no value if nobody participates. Unlike the internet you can only trade bitcoins. You cant use them for anything else.
    - olalonde 4y ago
      > Scams can be voluntary. I disagree, a scam must involve some level of deception.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    > The goal is better money. Except when someone points out it's terrible at that, its goal magically becomes something else. Which it's probably terrible at, and then the goal shifts again.
    - hardmoney99 4y ago
      You're confusing money with currency. Bitcoin is excellent money, the best there is. Currency? not so much due to current fluctuations. With adoption that will subside, so will the yields, and it may start behaving more like currency (or not). It's quite possible it becomes money but not currency with something like a stable coin taking place of currency. That doesn't mean that it won't try or won't make it. When you try to take on the entire finance system of the world, it's obviously going to take time and we may not see the fruit's of Satoshi's labor in our lifetime. The last block is not mined until 2140. For anyone else reading these comments, HN will not let me reply to all of your as I'm posting too fast. I would love to reply to every comment here. All very valid concerns and criticisms, although misplaced, deeply misunderstood. I don't blame you. If I were a skeptic of something, I would probably not put 1000 hours of educating myself on that subject. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Don't buy bitcoin. In fact, buy the short ETF out (today?) if you are so convinced it's not going anywhere positive. I really don't care. It would be great if more people were less emotional about Bitcoin just because it has monetary properties and seems like a ponzi, and actually took the time to think about it more deeply - but I understand that you're busy and would rather dismiss it. Fine by me. Proshares etf to short bitcoin: https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/BITO https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/BITO Vote with your conviction.
NoticeMeSenpai 4y ago
>Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Sorry this is all too vague. How do you define "broken" and what does this post-debt-driven economy look like? >They don't need articles like this one to tell them why their needs are unmet by the traditional finance system. Whats the use case here exactly?
- hardmoney99 4y ago
  >Sorry this is all too vague. How do you define "broken" and what does this post-debt-driven economy look like? Look up % of world population living in hyperinlationary environments to get your answer. The post-debt driven economy is one where a handful of people cannot devalue your labor with a press of a button. > Whats the use case here exactly? Freedom from corrupt governments that debase your currency into oblivion, only to adopt another currency which suffers from the same ultimate fate. Financial inclusion is the use case. It's broad, it's ambitious and ultimately to entrepreneurial interpretation.
  - NoticeMeSenpai 4y ago
    >Look up % of world population living in hyperinlationary environments to get your answer. The post-debt driven economy is one where a handful of people cannot devalue your labor with a press of a button. Ok so lets say the production costs increases and drives inflation. How does bitcoin make my life easier in this scenario?
    - jkepler 4y ago
      Accept bitcoin for your products and services, and when you run your books, look at it from the perspective of bitcoin to see if you're profitable or not, even if you legally still need to keep your books in your local government's currency. The dollars (and the other fiat currencies) inflate too quickly to be useful monetary measures.
  - trashtester 4y ago
    If you look into the details of a hyper-inflation environment (such as Germany in 1922-23), labor tends to retain its value pretty well under such conditions. Laborers would re-negotiate their salary every morning, and tended to do pretty well. Bank deposits go to 0 though, as would most savings that did not grant control of some inflation-resistent revenue-flow. Anyway, true hyperinflation is extremely rare. The most recent case I'm aware of, was Venezuela around 2013. To my knowledge, 0% of the pupulation lives under true hyperinflation today.
ChicagoDave 4y ago
So basically, criminals that love the idea of hiding their illicit transactions from government oversight so they can traffic humans and drugs.
- behringer 4y ago
  Or anyone that wants to travel without having their 5 or 10k in savings confiscated under asset forfeiture laws.
  - ChicagoDave 4y ago
    But why on earth would a legit person have anything seized?
    - behringer 4y ago
      I don't know, you'd have to ask the police why they keep funding their police department with seized assets from people without trial or even suspicion.
      - ChicagoDave 4y ago
        100% separate issue from the credibility behind crypto users evading the law.
        behringer 4y ago
        Well it's a problem that crypto solves.
- hardmoney99 4y ago
  You literally have to go through a regulated exchange to onboard and unload your illicit transactions. Not to mention your entire transaction history is public up to the exchange event. The biggest money launderers of today are literally the world's biggest banks. Go look up Deuche Bank money laundering fines.
Nursie 4y ago
> Bitcoin is the solution It's the solution to nothing. Nothing. This is pretty hilarious though, Bitcoin is exactly the same as a variety of other cryptocurrencies, which are carbon copies of it. Identical. But right on cue here come the bitcoin maximalists to explain that theirs is special. Here's the only reason it's special - brand recognition. That's it. That's what you have over the various forks and clones. First mover advantage. And this is what tells me that the technology isn't really solving anything, and nobody actually gives a fuck about it - other coins fix problems with BTC, they either make it more anonymous, or resolve transactions faster, or more of them, or all sorts of other things. But BTC still rules the roost because the whole thing is built on hype and sentiment and nothing more.
- jkepler 4y ago
  Actually, what you call brand recognition could be monetary adoption, as every nongovernmental money such as gold or silver had widespread adoption on their merits. Bitcoin solved the Byzantine generals' problem in adversarial network contexts, by its innovative deployment of proof-of-work. Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights, and property rights are a fundamental building block for human flourishing. Bitcoin provides a decentralized trustless source of truth, and none of the other cryptos do that because they're not nearly as widely adopted. Bitcoin is a strong base layer that faster more anonymous payments can be based upon, such as Lightning or Liquid, and things like CoinJoin and PayJoin, which are trust less and noncustodial. You can't start with a squishly base layer and then build stable systems, but if you start with solid fundamentals, privacy and better user experiences can be built on top. Bitcoin is also currently solving the natural gas industry's problem of flaring methane... portable mining rigs use the methane to generate electricity to provide network security to the Bitcoin network, while making natural gas extraction cleaner. Bitcoin mining is also incentivising and paying for the production of clean renewable energy on larger scales than anyone had figured how to fund. And some people use bitcoin mining to provide home heating in the winter. No other crypto is doing those things.
  - Nursie 4y ago
    > Bitcoin solved ... Its inventors came up with a solution to it, sure, and that is innovative. It's inelegant, it's massively wasteful, but as a technical curiosity it's certainly interesting. > Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights Fucking LOL. You say that as if it tapped into the laws of physics themselves, when actually a quantum computer could cause havoc here. It's using mathematics to achieve consensus, not writing data into the fabric of the universe, and as with all of your other points, it's just first mover advantage again. All of the other cryptocurrencies do the same. > Bitcoin provides a decentralized trustless source of truth No, it provides consensus, not truth. > Bitcoin is a strong base layer Exactly the same as its clones, forks and children. > and none of the other cryptos do that because they're not nearly as widely adopted. They do exactly the same. Adoption is a matter of degree, not absolute. > Bitcoin mining is also incentivising and paying for the production of clean renewable energy No, no it isn't. Bitcoin mining is filthy and getting worse. We don't need more incentives for green energy, the world is already full of those. Bitcoin mining, on the other hand, uses dirty coal in Kazakhstan. > No other crypto is doing those things. EVERY other cryptocurrency is doing EXACTLY those same things. It's all just brand recognition.
hnews_account_1 4y ago
I have a deep understanding of all of the latter. I work in capital markets daily. I do not know anyone serious with my level of experience in the actual markets who thinks bitcoin is the answer. There are several issues with tradFi. Pointing that out is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. In some cases, people are working on a fix. In other cases, the inefficiency and criminal activity is not ceasing because the scale is too small for overburdened regulators to care about. Not one of these uses bitcoin as a fix. Whoever is building it has almost never been in finance. They think tech bros can easily understand finance cos numbers! Except finance is extremely advanced. It’s like trying to join a full ML team after running a single random forest regression or something. The consequence of such hubris is sentences like this: > Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. The debt driven economy is by design. It’s not a fucking flaw like the hard money idiots listening to Peter Schiff daily want to believe. Sometimes it goes to excess and we get 2008. Doesn’t mean the older idea was better. There is no wealth distribution in a hard money paradigm that makes sense. For simple terms since you’re obviously not in the field, ask yourself where is money created? If you say central banks, go back to Econ 101 and study better this time.
- ephbit 4y ago
  > The debt driven economy is by design. People should ask "whose design?" then. Who's the beneficiary of this design? What do you think is more likely to be true? A. The wealthy/influencial/powerful/elites use their (disproportionate) power to influence the design of fundamentals of society - such as the monetary system - in a way that benefits/stabilizes their position at the top. B. The wealthy/influencial/powerful/elites just let the design of fundamentals of society - such as the monetary system - be in whatever way it's shaped by society or political processes.
- mikestaub 4y ago
  Bitcoin is not ever going to replace the fiat economy, it simply solves the wealth preservation problem by acting as gold v2.0. This is a huge deal as most empires in history have risen and fallen via currency manipulation, hurting millions of people in the process. The life preservers have finally arrived, just in time.
- 4y ago
JumpCrisscross 4y ago
> Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool Usually when describing something in the face of scrutiny, one describes a use case. If someone questions the validity of hammers, the solution isn't to say "we call this a hammer." It's to show how hammers are used. I doubt most crypto folks have any idea of credit markets or central banking. What they have expertise in is the manipulation of money. Bitcoin, and all of crypto, is Wall Street's love interest for a reason.
- snuckr 4y ago
  The use case is digital money that doesn't require banks.
- trashtester 4y ago
  Most of them watched some youtube video providing a conspiracy theory view on banking, "fiat" currencies and debt-as-money. They think they have deep insights when saying "banks create money out of thin air", or "there is not enough money in the economy to pay down all debt". They also use the word "fiat" as if it's bad that a currency is backed by a government. All the above are strong indication that there is something fundamental about the monetary system that someone fails to understand. A lot of crypto has been bought because the buyer were under such illusions.
- jkepler 4y ago
  Some of us have read Bastiat (in French!), Mises, Hayek, Rothbart, Solerno, and other "heterodox" Austrian economists, and have a better understanding of how money arises and how central bank interference in monetary and credit markets creates the boom and bust business cycles. Bitcoin, with its Austrian hard money roots, stands head and shoulders above the crazy scammy mess of all the centralized altcoins (or "crypto" if you lile) that you right to criticize. Please don't lump real technological and computer science innovation in with a the crypto rug-pulls.

achow 4y ago

> Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool for billions of people, the likes of which do not browse Hacker News These people are most vulnerable of the lot. They live hand to mouth, don't posses computing devices (may be cheap China smartphone). I cannot fathom how this demography manages bitcoin assets, manages to purchase their basic needs (which is all they can afford) using coins and not to mention this market crash when even millionaires are feeling the pinch.

hardmoney99 4y ago
What you describe here is grouping of thousands of different types of demographics into one. The reality is very different depending where you live, and your level of technology access varies. A fleeing Ukrainian is very well versed in Bitcoin - Ukraine has one of the highest levels of adoption. A Nigerian is also very versed in Bitcoin - despite their government's attempt at curtailing use, they still find a way. A kid in Congo may or may not have access to a smart phone - that I have no way of knowing, but I do know that cell phone access is ubiquitous in Africa despite what many imagine or believe. Sure, their needs may be better served by a stable coin, but that does not relieve bitcoin of value. A Salvadorian may or may not understand Bitcoin - but this is like asking the population to understand how your email protocol works - there's a lot to learn. Even in a country like Japan, Bitcoin is becoming a safe haven with the Yen losing 20% of its value when comparing to USD. Going back to the topic of the "most vulnerable", a bank that you and I take for granted is a luxury in many of Africa's nations. Bitcoin is a permission-less banking system. Does it have technological hurdles for the average person to overcome? Yes. But this is all being worked on right now by people I talk to every day. The same way that most people have no idea how SMTP works, you won't really need to understand behind the scenes of Bitcoin. There are various levels of autonomy and people will fall on the spectrum of where they are comfortable, with the level of privacy / security that most fits their Bitcoin education. You might find this short video interesting (only 10 seconds or so): https://twitter.com/HODLneverSODL/status/1518134911244320769?s=20&t=St1zY7CDI-XoQlZvTmBvnQ https://twitter.com/HODLneverSODL/status/1518134911244320769...
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  > A kid in Congo may or may not have access to a smart phone - that I have no way of knowing, ... a bank that you and I take for granted is a luxury in many of Africa's nations. What do you know about the existing problems, that you want to solve? When were you last in the region?

SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago

> fincial freedom tool for billions of people, the likes of which do not browse Hacker News. Citation needed (to put it mildly). How is Bitcoin improving on e.g. M-Pesa? Is there much adoption compared to M-Pesa, outside of fantasy? If you're not familiar with M-Pesa, then you don't know this subject at all. > Those people get Bitcoin instantly. https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jun/17/jay-z-bitcoin-school-marcy-houses https://www.theguardian.com/music/2022/jun/17/jay-z-bitcoin-...

forum_ghost 4y ago
Nigeria, just one country, has 34 million crypto users. mpesa has 30. 34 > 30 is that much adoption?
- SideburnsOfDoom 4y ago
  I'll assume that like me, you googled that. So, this is technically correct, but: 30 or 34 m users out of 206m isn't the whole market, not close. Nigeria is an outlier, with low M-Pesa adoption as: > The reason why this incredible product (M-Pesa) can’t be replicated in Nigeria with such success is perhaps due to what you and I as Nigerians enjoy today, the Nigerian Interbank Settlement System (NIBSS) https://nairametrics.com/2017/09/26/why-the-m-pesa-miracle-has-failed-to-work-in-nigeria/ https://nairametrics.com/2017/09/26/why-the-m-pesa-miracle-h... https://nibss-plc.com.ng/ https://nibss-plc.com.ng/ https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nigeria-inter-bank-settlement-system https://www.crunchbase.com/organization/nigeria-inter-bank-s... So to sum up, the huge Nigerian domestic market is covered by a SEPA-like product. It's not a bitcoin thing. Omitting that seems intentionally misleading.
olalonde 4y ago
> How is Bitcoin improving on e.g. M-Pesa? M-Pesa only works in some African countries? And it relies on the benevolence of Vodafone Group and governments?

iLoveOncall 4y ago

> Bitcoin does not exhibit any of the ponzi shenanigans Really? How do you call something where there is no underlying product generating value, and you need to have someone else put money in to get your money out? It's literally the definition of a ponzi pyramid.

hardmoney99 4y ago
Bitcoin is voluntary. The goal is better money. If you take on that big of a challenge, you kinda need people to participate with their "old" money. It's called adoption. Just like internet would have no value if nobody participated, bitcoin has no value if nobody participates. Do you send email to yourself? No. Do you shop from a non-existing platform? no.
- NoticeMeSenpai 4y ago
  >Bitcoin is voluntary Scams can be voluntary. >The goal is better money There is no clear path to that goal. >If you take on that big of a challenge, you kinda need people to participate with their "old" money. "Old" as in the USD? >Just like internet would have no value if nobody participated, bitcoin has no value if nobody participates. Unlike the internet you can only trade bitcoins. You cant use them for anything else.
  - olalonde 4y ago
    > Scams can be voluntary. I disagree, a scam must involve some level of deception.
- Nursie 4y ago
  > The goal is better money. Except when someone points out it's terrible at that, its goal magically becomes something else. Which it's probably terrible at, and then the goal shifts again.
  - hardmoney99 4y ago
    You're confusing money with currency. Bitcoin is excellent money, the best there is. Currency? not so much due to current fluctuations. With adoption that will subside, so will the yields, and it may start behaving more like currency (or not). It's quite possible it becomes money but not currency with something like a stable coin taking place of currency. That doesn't mean that it won't try or won't make it. When you try to take on the entire finance system of the world, it's obviously going to take time and we may not see the fruit's of Satoshi's labor in our lifetime. The last block is not mined until 2140. For anyone else reading these comments, HN will not let me reply to all of your as I'm posting too fast. I would love to reply to every comment here. All very valid concerns and criticisms, although misplaced, deeply misunderstood. I don't blame you. If I were a skeptic of something, I would probably not put 1000 hours of educating myself on that subject. I am not here to convince anyone of anything. Don't buy bitcoin. In fact, buy the short ETF out (today?) if you are so convinced it's not going anywhere positive. I really don't care. It would be great if more people were less emotional about Bitcoin just because it has monetary properties and seems like a ponzi, and actually took the time to think about it more deeply - but I understand that you're busy and would rather dismiss it. Fine by me. Proshares etf to short bitcoin: https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/BITO https://www.cnbc.com/quotes/BITO Vote with your conviction.

NoticeMeSenpai 4y ago

>Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. Sorry this is all too vague. How do you define "broken" and what does this post-debt-driven economy look like? >They don't need articles like this one to tell them why their needs are unmet by the traditional finance system. Whats the use case here exactly?

hardmoney99 4y ago
>Sorry this is all too vague. How do you define "broken" and what does this post-debt-driven economy look like? Look up % of world population living in hyperinlationary environments to get your answer. The post-debt driven economy is one where a handful of people cannot devalue your labor with a press of a button. > Whats the use case here exactly? Freedom from corrupt governments that debase your currency into oblivion, only to adopt another currency which suffers from the same ultimate fate. Financial inclusion is the use case. It's broad, it's ambitious and ultimately to entrepreneurial interpretation.
- NoticeMeSenpai 4y ago
  >Look up % of world population living in hyperinlationary environments to get your answer. The post-debt driven economy is one where a handful of people cannot devalue your labor with a press of a button. Ok so lets say the production costs increases and drives inflation. How does bitcoin make my life easier in this scenario?
  - jkepler 4y ago
    Accept bitcoin for your products and services, and when you run your books, look at it from the perspective of bitcoin to see if you're profitable or not, even if you legally still need to keep your books in your local government's currency. The dollars (and the other fiat currencies) inflate too quickly to be useful monetary measures.
- trashtester 4y ago
  If you look into the details of a hyper-inflation environment (such as Germany in 1922-23), labor tends to retain its value pretty well under such conditions. Laborers would re-negotiate their salary every morning, and tended to do pretty well. Bank deposits go to 0 though, as would most savings that did not grant control of some inflation-resistent revenue-flow. Anyway, true hyperinflation is extremely rare. The most recent case I'm aware of, was Venezuela around 2013. To my knowledge, 0% of the pupulation lives under true hyperinflation today.

ChicagoDave 4y ago

So basically, criminals that love the idea of hiding their illicit transactions from government oversight so they can traffic humans and drugs.

behringer 4y ago
Or anyone that wants to travel without having their 5 or 10k in savings confiscated under asset forfeiture laws.
- ChicagoDave 4y ago
  But why on earth would a legit person have anything seized?
  - behringer 4y ago
    I don't know, you'd have to ask the police why they keep funding their police department with seized assets from people without trial or even suspicion.
    - ChicagoDave 4y ago
      100% separate issue from the credibility behind crypto users evading the law.
      - behringer 4y ago
        Well it's a problem that crypto solves.
hardmoney99 4y ago
You literally have to go through a regulated exchange to onboard and unload your illicit transactions. Not to mention your entire transaction history is public up to the exchange event. The biggest money launderers of today are literally the world's biggest banks. Go look up Deuche Bank money laundering fines.

Nursie 4y ago

> Bitcoin is the solution It's the solution to nothing. Nothing. This is pretty hilarious though, Bitcoin is exactly the same as a variety of other cryptocurrencies, which are carbon copies of it. Identical. But right on cue here come the bitcoin maximalists to explain that theirs is special. Here's the only reason it's special - brand recognition. That's it. That's what you have over the various forks and clones. First mover advantage. And this is what tells me that the technology isn't really solving anything, and nobody actually gives a fuck about it - other coins fix problems with BTC, they either make it more anonymous, or resolve transactions faster, or more of them, or all sorts of other things. But BTC still rules the roost because the whole thing is built on hype and sentiment and nothing more.

jkepler 4y ago
Actually, what you call brand recognition could be monetary adoption, as every nongovernmental money such as gold or silver had widespread adoption on their merits. Bitcoin solved the Byzantine generals' problem in adversarial network contexts, by its innovative deployment of proof-of-work. Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights, and property rights are a fundamental building block for human flourishing. Bitcoin provides a decentralized trustless source of truth, and none of the other cryptos do that because they're not nearly as widely adopted. Bitcoin is a strong base layer that faster more anonymous payments can be based upon, such as Lightning or Liquid, and things like CoinJoin and PayJoin, which are trust less and noncustodial. You can't start with a squishly base layer and then build stable systems, but if you start with solid fundamentals, privacy and better user experiences can be built on top. Bitcoin is also currently solving the natural gas industry's problem of flaring methane... portable mining rigs use the methane to generate electricity to provide network security to the Bitcoin network, while making natural gas extraction cleaner. Bitcoin mining is also incentivising and paying for the production of clean renewable energy on larger scales than anyone had figured how to fund. And some people use bitcoin mining to provide home heating in the winter. No other crypto is doing those things.
- Nursie 4y ago
  > Bitcoin solved ... Its inventors came up with a solution to it, sure, and that is innovative. It's inelegant, it's massively wasteful, but as a technical curiosity it's certainly interesting. > Thus, bitcoin invented thermodynamically secured property rights Fucking LOL. You say that as if it tapped into the laws of physics themselves, when actually a quantum computer could cause havoc here. It's using mathematics to achieve consensus, not writing data into the fabric of the universe, and as with all of your other points, it's just first mover advantage again. All of the other cryptocurrencies do the same. > Bitcoin provides a decentralized trustless source of truth No, it provides consensus, not truth. > Bitcoin is a strong base layer Exactly the same as its clones, forks and children. > and none of the other cryptos do that because they're not nearly as widely adopted. They do exactly the same. Adoption is a matter of degree, not absolute. > Bitcoin mining is also incentivising and paying for the production of clean renewable energy No, no it isn't. Bitcoin mining is filthy and getting worse. We don't need more incentives for green energy, the world is already full of those. Bitcoin mining, on the other hand, uses dirty coal in Kazakhstan. > No other crypto is doing those things. EVERY other cryptocurrency is doing EXACTLY those same things. It's all just brand recognition.

hnews_account_1 4y ago

I have a deep understanding of all of the latter. I work in capital markets daily. I do not know anyone serious with my level of experience in the actual markets who thinks bitcoin is the answer. There are several issues with tradFi. Pointing that out is like saying the sun will rise tomorrow. In some cases, people are working on a fix. In other cases, the inefficiency and criminal activity is not ceasing because the scale is too small for overburdened regulators to care about. Not one of these uses bitcoin as a fix. Whoever is building it has almost never been in finance. They think tech bros can easily understand finance cos numbers! Except finance is extremely advanced. It’s like trying to join a full ML team after running a single random forest regression or something. The consequence of such hubris is sentences like this: > Bitcoin is the solution to the fundamentally broken debt-driven economy. The debt driven economy is by design. It’s not a fucking flaw like the hard money idiots listening to Peter Schiff daily want to believe. Sometimes it goes to excess and we get 2008. Doesn’t mean the older idea was better. There is no wealth distribution in a hard money paradigm that makes sense. For simple terms since you’re obviously not in the field, ask yourself where is money created? If you say central banks, go back to Econ 101 and study better this time.

ephbit 4y ago
> The debt driven economy is by design. People should ask "whose design?" then. Who's the beneficiary of this design? What do you think is more likely to be true? A. The wealthy/influencial/powerful/elites use their (disproportionate) power to influence the design of fundamentals of society - such as the monetary system - in a way that benefits/stabilizes their position at the top. B. The wealthy/influencial/powerful/elites just let the design of fundamentals of society - such as the monetary system - be in whatever way it's shaped by society or political processes.
mikestaub 4y ago
Bitcoin is not ever going to replace the fiat economy, it simply solves the wealth preservation problem by acting as gold v2.0. This is a huge deal as most empires in history have risen and fallen via currency manipulation, hurting millions of people in the process. The life preservers have finally arrived, just in time.
4y ago

JumpCrisscross 4y ago

> Bitcoin is a financial freedom tool Usually when describing something in the face of scrutiny, one describes a use case. If someone questions the validity of hammers, the solution isn't to say "we call this a hammer." It's to show how hammers are used. I doubt most crypto folks have any idea of credit markets or central banking. What they have expertise in is the manipulation of money. Bitcoin, and all of crypto, is Wall Street's love interest for a reason.

snuckr 4y ago
The use case is digital money that doesn't require banks.
trashtester 4y ago
Most of them watched some youtube video providing a conspiracy theory view on banking, "fiat" currencies and debt-as-money. They think they have deep insights when saying "banks create money out of thin air", or "there is not enough money in the economy to pay down all debt". They also use the word "fiat" as if it's bad that a currency is backed by a government. All the above are strong indication that there is something fundamental about the monetary system that someone fails to understand. A lot of crypto has been bought because the buyer were under such illusions.
jkepler 4y ago
Some of us have read Bastiat (in French!), Mises, Hayek, Rothbart, Solerno, and other "heterodox" Austrian economists, and have a better understanding of how money arises and how central bank interference in monetary and credit markets creates the boom and bust business cycles. Bitcoin, with its Austrian hard money roots, stands head and shoulders above the crazy scammy mess of all the centralized altcoins (or "crypto" if you lile) that you right to criticize. Please don't lump real technological and computer science innovation in with a the crypto rug-pulls.