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> And why don't we in the west sanction them or refuse to trade with them for this practice? I wish we would. Possibly the one good thing coming out of the Rus

> And why don't we in the west sanction them or refuse to trade with them for this practice? I wish we would. Possibly the one good thing coming out of the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a realization that depending on oil and gas leaves you very vulnerable and that alternative sources of energy must become more common.

agent008t 4y ago
There will always be a dependency on resources or products from other countries - especially if we truly respect the rights of self-determination of arbitrarily small nations and city-states. True sovereignty of these states also means that they have the right to not trade with us for any reason, does it not? There will also always be disagreements on fundamental ethical issues between countries. Even between the states in the US you can see such disagreements. What we seem to lack is a principle for dealing with such situations. Instead, ad-hoc, inconsistent measures tend to be taken. It seems like if the true principle guiding such decisions were publicly announced, the general public would find it unpalatable. Are we living in willful denial? Can such a principle then exist, that would both be consistent with our declared values, without compromising our ability to survive and defend ourselves and act according to it?
mrleinad 4y ago
Most countries on earth simply cease to function as they are doing now with alternative eco-friendly energy sources. Applying alternative energy sources where it doesn't make sense to do so ends up throwing billions of dollars on having solar panels where they can never generate the energy they theoretically could (Germany, I'm looking at you)
- zelphirkalt 4y ago
  I do not know, whether this is true, but: When I was in school, we learned in geography class, that one could power the whole EU, if we occupied some area of the Sahara desert with solar panels, at least when looking at raw energy output, disregarding day night differences and possibly hot and cold environment that a desert is. I guess humanity is still not ready for such projects of enormous cooperation between countries, or, that there are too many things in the way, like said temperature rise at day and fall at night, the vast distance the energy would need to be transported (is that a problem?) and maintenance work somewhere in the desert. One can still hope, that some day we will be able to think globally and solve problems that way.
  - Taikonerd 4y ago
    > we learned in geography class, that one could power the whole EU, if we occupied some area of the Sahara desert with solar panels I sometimes hear that too. The YouTube channel "Real Engineering" did a video about the idea: [1] The TLDR is: the Sahara definitely gets enough sun, but transmitting the power into Europe would be hard. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o
- loudmax 4y ago
  In the long term, most countries on earth will not be able to function as they are now if they don't switch to alternative energy sources. This will involve a mix of wind, solar, hydro, geothermal and nuclear on grids that span continents with massive battery stores to balance supply with demand. Between climate change and petroleum-fuelled kleptocrats, ditching fossil fuels is a necessity, not a choice. And the long term here is on the order of decades, not centuries, so within most of our our lifetimes.
radiator 4y ago
On the contrary, what many people in the West are realizing, is that abstaining from oil and gas leaves you poor or broke.

agent008t 4y ago

There will always be a dependency on resources or products from other countries - especially if we truly respect the rights of self-determination of arbitrarily small nations and city-states. True sovereignty of these states also means that they have the right to not trade with us for any reason, does it not? There will also always be disagreements on fundamental ethical issues between countries. Even between the states in the US you can see such disagreements. What we seem to lack is a principle for dealing with such situations. Instead, ad-hoc, inconsistent measures tend to be taken. It seems like if the true principle guiding such decisions were publicly announced, the general public would find it unpalatable. Are we living in willful denial? Can such a principle then exist, that would both be consistent with our declared values, without compromising our ability to survive and defend ourselves and act according to it?

mrleinad 4y ago

Most countries on earth simply cease to function as they are doing now with alternative eco-friendly energy sources. Applying alternative energy sources where it doesn't make sense to do so ends up throwing billions of dollars on having solar panels where they can never generate the energy they theoretically could (Germany, I'm looking at you)

zelphirkalt 4y ago
I do not know, whether this is true, but: When I was in school, we learned in geography class, that one could power the whole EU, if we occupied some area of the Sahara desert with solar panels, at least when looking at raw energy output, disregarding day night differences and possibly hot and cold environment that a desert is. I guess humanity is still not ready for such projects of enormous cooperation between countries, or, that there are too many things in the way, like said temperature rise at day and fall at night, the vast distance the energy would need to be transported (is that a problem?) and maintenance work somewhere in the desert. One can still hope, that some day we will be able to think globally and solve problems that way.
- Taikonerd 4y ago
  > we learned in geography class, that one could power the whole EU, if we occupied some area of the Sahara desert with solar panels I sometimes hear that too. The YouTube channel "Real Engineering" did a video about the idea: [1] The TLDR is: the Sahara definitely gets enough sun, but transmitting the power into Europe would be hard. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7OpM_zKGE4o
loudmax 4y ago
In the long term, most countries on earth will not be able to function as they are now if they don't switch to alternative energy sources. This will involve a mix of wind, solar, hydro, geothermal and nuclear on grids that span continents with massive battery stores to balance supply with demand. Between climate change and petroleum-fuelled kleptocrats, ditching fossil fuels is a necessity, not a choice. And the long term here is on the order of decades, not centuries, so within most of our our lifetimes.

radiator 4y ago

On the contrary, what many people in the West are realizing, is that abstaining from oil and gas leaves you poor or broke.