4 ms·

Interesting that with something as big as football, the organisers can get away with a lot of bad taste decisions. They can host wherever they want and they wil

by ctack 4y ago

Interesting that with something as big as football, the organisers can get away with a lot of bad taste decisions. They can host wherever they want and they will be guaranteed a sufficient turnout thanks to the absolute massiveness of the fanbase. Woman's rights or workers rights in a faraway country? Fat load of nothing issues for many who want to see their country in the semis.

coldtea 4y ago
It's not about this being football. It's because those guys are friendly governments to western interests. If they weren't there would be 10x the media and government noise for 1/10 the bad stuff (if it wasn't cancelled or boycotted altogether).
dotancohen 4y ago
- themitigating 4y ago
  You mean freedoms?
  - dotancohen 4y ago
    No, I mean culture. You are also free to pursue an academic career, not take drugs, and speak elegantly. But that lifestyle is far less glorified in Western media than drug use, gangsta life, and profanity. Here's a thought: his many Western popular media heros use violence to achieve their goals? How many use rhetoric, critical thinking, and respectful verbal persuasion?
    - dTal 4y ago
      How many Qatari pop media heroes "use rhetoric, critical thinking, and respectful verbal persuasion?" I think you'll have a hard time arguing that the country with the death penalty for adultery is a less violent culture than the one that made Harry Potter and Doctor Who (both nonviolent).
- tluyben2 4y ago
  So countries that trample human and women rights (and everything that comes from it like child marriage, slavery etc) are just a matter of culture? No problems in the world then, just different culture?
  - coldtea 4y ago
    Well, if you were raised X years ago or Y years in the future, when your own culture was OK with all/some of those things (e.g. in 1830s US South), then you'd be fine with them too (at least statistically: most would be). So, yes, in a sense it's just a matter of culture. The universe doesn't care either way.
  - f1refly 4y ago
    Technically yes - what makes your opinion on how life should be more correct than their opinion?
    - marvin 4y ago
      Well, this line of reasoning will end up going Godwin in a hurry. But for entertainment value, to make a different argument against moral relativism: A higher proportion of people from Qatar would like to e.g. live in Europe than the proportion of Europeans who would like to live in Qatar, and vastly higher if we take relative social standing into account. I'm sure there are plenty of ethical questions where a hypothetical, neutral outside observer would have trouble choosing. There are more ethical question where the neutral outside observer would easily be able to discriminate what cultural traits they preferred, while at the same time understanding why those sub-optimal cultural traits came to be and play a role in that particular society. Imagine sexual mores in a society with no birth control, lots of hard labor and the preference for peaceful succession due to early accumulation of capital (farms), for instance. It's easy to understand what role traditional and restrictive morals has in such a society, while at the same time acknowledging that living within the morals of such society would be a giant step down in quality of life. So that's the complex argument. But that all ethics is generally speaking relative from a human perspective, can be trivially disproven by pointing out ethical standards that almost all societies except those that have them will find repugnant. Consider e.g. genital mutilation or institutionalized child abuse.
- generj 4y ago
  Having thousands of “workers” die in order to host a high prestige sporting event is definitely bad taste. Of course there are cultural differences as well, but modern-day Spartas with 90% permanent underclasses are fundamentally repugnant under any culture. I’ll also note that in many of the wealthy Gulf states, the rules are so unequally enforced that the ruling people do enjoy many of the vices they supposedly disagree with in Western culture. There are other countries where cultural differences are in good faith, Qatar isn’t one of them.
klausjensen 4y ago
FIFA is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world so it is hardly a surprise. Anything is for sale. It is widely documented. Here is an OK starting point, if you want to dig deeper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case
- harha 4y ago
  FIFA can only operate this way as long as the country organizations tolerate it, it’s interesting how something like sports that is commonly considered as representing a country is so massively corrupt and everybody is ok with it (and I’m thinking of the big sponsors, where you probably have massive background checks to get hired, but it’s alright to invest in such organizations)
  - Cymrukicks 4y ago
    They are setup to defend against it, Several countries have reacted against the blatant corruption and Fifa will instantly suspend them for political interference.
    - harha 4y ago
      Well then they should leave. If corruption is such a no-no in the EU, US, etc., and businesses like Mastercard and Heineken, then this would have to become a tournament of the Qatars and Chinas of the world.
    - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
      > countries have reacted against the blatant corruption and Fifa will instantly suspend them for political interference the U.S. has shown it’s more than capable of holding FIFA to account when it wants to [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case
tsol 4y ago
I mean just look at this thread; most people are already unloading their frustration on Qatar and the UAE. I don't agree with a lot of stuff that they do, I should say. But it's FIFA that let them do this. If fans are gonna let them do that then host countries are free to do what they want. Corruption is the problem
sofixa 4y ago
I think that this World Cup will have one of the lowest attendances in recent years due to a myriad of factors ( wrong season, no alcohol/partying/etc. and yes, the horribleness of it all).

by ctack 4y ago

coldtea 4y ago

It's not about this being football. It's because those guys are friendly governments to western interests. If they weren't there would be 10x the media and government noise for 1/10 the bad stuff (if it wasn't cancelled or boycotted altogether).

dotancohen 4y ago

themitigating 4y ago
You mean freedoms?
- dotancohen 4y ago
  No, I mean culture. You are also free to pursue an academic career, not take drugs, and speak elegantly. But that lifestyle is far less glorified in Western media than drug use, gangsta life, and profanity. Here's a thought: his many Western popular media heros use violence to achieve their goals? How many use rhetoric, critical thinking, and respectful verbal persuasion?
  - dTal 4y ago
    How many Qatari pop media heroes "use rhetoric, critical thinking, and respectful verbal persuasion?" I think you'll have a hard time arguing that the country with the death penalty for adultery is a less violent culture than the one that made Harry Potter and Doctor Who (both nonviolent).
tluyben2 4y ago
So countries that trample human and women rights (and everything that comes from it like child marriage, slavery etc) are just a matter of culture? No problems in the world then, just different culture?
- coldtea 4y ago
  Well, if you were raised X years ago or Y years in the future, when your own culture was OK with all/some of those things (e.g. in 1830s US South), then you'd be fine with them too (at least statistically: most would be). So, yes, in a sense it's just a matter of culture. The universe doesn't care either way.
- f1refly 4y ago
  Technically yes - what makes your opinion on how life should be more correct than their opinion?
  - marvin 4y ago
    Well, this line of reasoning will end up going Godwin in a hurry. But for entertainment value, to make a different argument against moral relativism: A higher proportion of people from Qatar would like to e.g. live in Europe than the proportion of Europeans who would like to live in Qatar, and vastly higher if we take relative social standing into account. I'm sure there are plenty of ethical questions where a hypothetical, neutral outside observer would have trouble choosing. There are more ethical question where the neutral outside observer would easily be able to discriminate what cultural traits they preferred, while at the same time understanding why those sub-optimal cultural traits came to be and play a role in that particular society. Imagine sexual mores in a society with no birth control, lots of hard labor and the preference for peaceful succession due to early accumulation of capital (farms), for instance. It's easy to understand what role traditional and restrictive morals has in such a society, while at the same time acknowledging that living within the morals of such society would be a giant step down in quality of life. So that's the complex argument. But that all ethics is generally speaking relative from a human perspective, can be trivially disproven by pointing out ethical standards that almost all societies except those that have them will find repugnant. Consider e.g. genital mutilation or institutionalized child abuse.
generj 4y ago
Having thousands of “workers” die in order to host a high prestige sporting event is definitely bad taste. Of course there are cultural differences as well, but modern-day Spartas with 90% permanent underclasses are fundamentally repugnant under any culture. I’ll also note that in many of the wealthy Gulf states, the rules are so unequally enforced that the ruling people do enjoy many of the vices they supposedly disagree with in Western culture. There are other countries where cultural differences are in good faith, Qatar isn’t one of them.

klausjensen 4y ago

FIFA is one of the most corrupt organizations in the world so it is hardly a surprise. Anything is for sale. It is widely documented. Here is an OK starting point, if you want to dig deeper: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case

harha 4y ago
FIFA can only operate this way as long as the country organizations tolerate it, it’s interesting how something like sports that is commonly considered as representing a country is so massively corrupt and everybody is ok with it (and I’m thinking of the big sponsors, where you probably have massive background checks to get hired, but it’s alright to invest in such organizations)
- Cymrukicks 4y ago
  They are setup to defend against it, Several countries have reacted against the blatant corruption and Fifa will instantly suspend them for political interference.
  - harha 4y ago
    Well then they should leave. If corruption is such a no-no in the EU, US, etc., and businesses like Mastercard and Heineken, then this would have to become a tournament of the Qatars and Chinas of the world.
  - JumpCrisscross 4y ago
    > countries have reacted against the blatant corruption and Fifa will instantly suspend them for political interference the U.S. has shown it’s more than capable of holding FIFA to account when it wants to [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_FIFA_corruption_case

tsol 4y ago

I mean just look at this thread; most people are already unloading their frustration on Qatar and the UAE. I don't agree with a lot of stuff that they do, I should say. But it's FIFA that let them do this. If fans are gonna let them do that then host countries are free to do what they want. Corruption is the problem

sofixa 4y ago

I think that this World Cup will have one of the lowest attendances in recent years due to a myriad of factors ( wrong season, no alcohol/partying/etc. and yes, the horribleness of it all).