4 ms·

This is where ethics and money collide. If you participate, you’re complicit. The players are comfortable enough to say no, and the punters can stick to the l

This is where ethics and money collide. If you participate, you’re complicit. The players are comfortable enough to say no, and the punters can stick to the local pub or even bite hard and “stay home” entirely - let the advertisers know. Talk it cheap. Actions mean more but both have costs. Willing to pay?

ahtihn 4y ago
> The players are comfortable enough to say no Not if saying no risks ending your career. You don't become a pro football player and play in the world cup just for thr money.
- coldtea 4y ago
  Well, it's not just comfortable money you wont miss that one can sacrifice...
- jleyank 4y ago
  There’s other ways to be bought than money. Very few athletes have risked their careers to take a stand or do the right thing. Their sincerity is really undercut by never taking a risk. Unless they’re just part of the bread and circuses… “Xxx is bad, unless it hurts me” isn’t a defensible moral position. Better they drop the sermonizing if it’s just feel good.
  - ramesh31 4y ago
    >Very few athletes have risked their careers to take a stand or do the right thing. Their sincerity is really undercut by never taking a risk. This is a job for them. And most come from poor backgrounds with families to support. How many of us would stand up right now and call out our employers in public for doing evil things? Not many. We've got mortgages to pay and kids to feed. Ultimately they just want to get paid and go home, like anyone else.
- DocTomoe 4y ago
  "Just doing my job" hasn't been a valid excuse for accepting crimes against humanity ever since 1945. Sometimes doing the right thing comes with a cost, and sometimes, that cost is non-negotiable.
- alex3305 4y ago
  If you are a footballer in Europe or South America, the World Cup doesn't have to be the biggest tournament. There are big names in football which haven't played in a World Cup at all [1]. If you want to earn the big bucks, you will have to play at a big club in Europe and play Champions League. There's where the money is. 1. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1116241-ranking-the-top-20-players-who-never-played-in-a-world-cup https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1116241-ranking-the-top-...
  - sofixa 4y ago
    It's not about the money, but the prestige. Champions League is plenty prestigious, but the World Cup/Euros/Copa America provide an extra stage, a national one at that. Iceland, Croatia, Denmark are recent national teams that went much farther than expected, to much national acclaim ( the whole country celebrating their success). For many players that makes them national heros, and brings them pride and prestige. And there were a lot of players on those teams who were not superstars winning the Champions League regularly.
- GekkePrutser 4y ago
  They shouldn't even have to. No player should be forced to go to a country that thinks they should die just because of who they love.
jliptzin 4y ago
Why anyone would risk prison or death to watch a soccer game is beyond me
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]
cloutchaser 4y ago
Taking another example - I HIGHLY doubt every single BLM kneeling player actually agrees with it. But they do it because their priority is playing football, and it's better to stay silent and focus on the football. Which I think is actually fair enough. You might actually destroyed your entire career in this case by taking a principled stand, and you are being forced to participate in something against your will. In the end you are a footballer wanting to play football. Unfortunately though looking at it from the outside, it starts to really look like an authoritarian ritual that everyone is forced to participate in, like the 30 minute clapping that many dictators get after speeches because everyone is afraid to be the first to stop. But that doesn't mean the system is good or people actually agree with the dictator.
- jleyank 4y ago
  Well, to draw examples from the US, Curt Flood tossed his baseball career to break the reserve clause. Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali lost years of work due to Vietnam. Colin Kaepernick tossed his football career to showcase racism. I'm sure there's non-US examples but those are what came to mind. I don't mind people "going along to get along", but I respect those who put themselves at risk if they're talking RL issues. But as I wrote previously, if you profit from the action your criticism is less valuable. Perhaps better to not make yourself look bad? EDIT: I'm sure there's some in the HN community that have given up (big) bucks to work on things they find ethical and appropriate rather than taking the cash to sell ads and monitor people. Perhaps they can enlighten this discussion if they wish?
  - cloutchaser 4y ago
    Muhammed Ali is perhaps a good example, because he really did have something to lose. I think Colin Kapernick is not as good, he wasn't a good player, and in the current environment what he did was guaranteed to be embraced by the cultural leadership of the english speaking world, he was basically held up as a hero, and got his own TV show. If a premier league player refused to kneel for BLM, he would be banished from football and public life forever, for being an evil racist. And would probably have a hard time finding any work for a long time.

ahtihn 4y ago

> The players are comfortable enough to say no Not if saying no risks ending your career. You don't become a pro football player and play in the world cup just for thr money.

coldtea 4y ago
Well, it's not just comfortable money you wont miss that one can sacrifice...
jleyank 4y ago
There’s other ways to be bought than money. Very few athletes have risked their careers to take a stand or do the right thing. Their sincerity is really undercut by never taking a risk. Unless they’re just part of the bread and circuses… “Xxx is bad, unless it hurts me” isn’t a defensible moral position. Better they drop the sermonizing if it’s just feel good.
- ramesh31 4y ago
  >Very few athletes have risked their careers to take a stand or do the right thing. Their sincerity is really undercut by never taking a risk. This is a job for them. And most come from poor backgrounds with families to support. How many of us would stand up right now and call out our employers in public for doing evil things? Not many. We've got mortgages to pay and kids to feed. Ultimately they just want to get paid and go home, like anyone else.
DocTomoe 4y ago
"Just doing my job" hasn't been a valid excuse for accepting crimes against humanity ever since 1945. Sometimes doing the right thing comes with a cost, and sometimes, that cost is non-negotiable.
alex3305 4y ago
If you are a footballer in Europe or South America, the World Cup doesn't have to be the biggest tournament. There are big names in football which haven't played in a World Cup at all [1]. If you want to earn the big bucks, you will have to play at a big club in Europe and play Champions League. There's where the money is. 1. https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1116241-ranking-the-top-20-players-who-never-played-in-a-world-cup https://bleacherreport.com/articles/1116241-ranking-the-top-...
- sofixa 4y ago
  It's not about the money, but the prestige. Champions League is plenty prestigious, but the World Cup/Euros/Copa America provide an extra stage, a national one at that. Iceland, Croatia, Denmark are recent national teams that went much farther than expected, to much national acclaim ( the whole country celebrating their success). For many players that makes them national heros, and brings them pride and prestige. And there were a lot of players on those teams who were not superstars winning the Champions League regularly.
GekkePrutser 4y ago
They shouldn't even have to. No player should be forced to go to a country that thinks they should die just because of who they love.

jliptzin 4y ago

Why anyone would risk prison or death to watch a soccer game is beyond me

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]

cloutchaser 4y ago

Taking another example - I HIGHLY doubt every single BLM kneeling player actually agrees with it. But they do it because their priority is playing football, and it's better to stay silent and focus on the football. Which I think is actually fair enough. You might actually destroyed your entire career in this case by taking a principled stand, and you are being forced to participate in something against your will. In the end you are a footballer wanting to play football. Unfortunately though looking at it from the outside, it starts to really look like an authoritarian ritual that everyone is forced to participate in, like the 30 minute clapping that many dictators get after speeches because everyone is afraid to be the first to stop. But that doesn't mean the system is good or people actually agree with the dictator.

jleyank 4y ago
Well, to draw examples from the US, Curt Flood tossed his baseball career to break the reserve clause. Cassius Clay/Muhammad Ali lost years of work due to Vietnam. Colin Kaepernick tossed his football career to showcase racism. I'm sure there's non-US examples but those are what came to mind. I don't mind people "going along to get along", but I respect those who put themselves at risk if they're talking RL issues. But as I wrote previously, if you profit from the action your criticism is less valuable. Perhaps better to not make yourself look bad? EDIT: I'm sure there's some in the HN community that have given up (big) bucks to work on things they find ethical and appropriate rather than taking the cash to sell ads and monitor people. Perhaps they can enlighten this discussion if they wish?
- cloutchaser 4y ago
  Muhammed Ali is perhaps a good example, because he really did have something to lose. I think Colin Kapernick is not as good, he wasn't a good player, and in the current environment what he did was guaranteed to be embraced by the cultural leadership of the english speaking world, he was basically held up as a hero, and got his own TV show. If a premier league player refused to kneel for BLM, he would be banished from football and public life forever, for being an evil racist. And would probably have a hard time finding any work for a long time.