6 ms·

Schluss – A secure vault for personal data

138 points by janandonly 4y ago

_uy6i 4y ago
I don’t see this going anywhere unless a) it becomes costly/risky to hold customer data, b) it’s mandated by law, or c) there is massive customer demand Unfortunately I don’t see any of those on the horizon…
bobhageman 4y ago
Hi all, I work at Schluss, came across this topic and found it very informative. Thanks for all your comments and thoughts! We share your distrust against anyone making big claims. We also have been disappointed more than once. So, we get where you come from. We believe in dialogue. Therefore, we take each and every one of you serious. With what we are trying to achieve we know we have a major challenge up ahead. We take it to the extreme: Schluss does not want to have any knowledge about its users and usage. The company at this moment is a foundation (no shares!) with the sole purpose to become a cooperative. This way every user is co-owner. On the technical side, the system must be decentralized and distributed and we want to stay away from vendor lock-ins. You as a user will own and control what is yours. No one will know of your existence or have access to your data unless you want so. This is complex and difficult to achieve because there is so much to take into account. And even though we're building a few years already, we know we're just getting started. Our software is, of course, open source and BSD licensed. See our repo's here: https://gitlab.com/schluss https://gitlab.com/schluss.
shafyy 4y ago
Idea-wise, this seems similar to Tim Berners-Lee's Solid (https://solidproject.org/ https://solidproject.org/). The problem with these approaches is that no significant company is going to do this voluntarily. And this is not going to make a dent until Meta, Apple and friends do it. They are not going to do it because it doesn't give them an advantage, it only makes their lifes harder. It makes it harder even if they don't use the data for anything, because of increased technical complexity etc. So, this is not a technology problem, but a legal/political problem. Just as the EU is forcing big messaging apps to ensure interoperability now, the only thing that will make a difference here is a law that disallows companies from saving customer data in their own databases. A GDPR 2.0. If you want to make a difference in this space, you need to spend your time pushing new legislation. I'm sure that in time the EU will get there. And then we will need good tech like Schluss or Solid. But before then, it's not going to do anything.
- ButterWashed 4y ago
  Tim Berners-Lee's startup Inrupt [0] is essentially trying to partner with companies to sell an enterprise version of the Solid Project software. Their website suggests they've partnered with some large-ish companies already[1]. I could see a webpage prompting you for a release of your certain parts of your 'pod' rather than use cookies perhaps. [0] https://inrupt.com/ https://inrupt.com/ [1] https://inrupt.com/solid-enterprise-natwest-bbc https://inrupt.com/solid-enterprise-natwest-bbc
- sph 4y ago
  Does Solid have a concrete working example? I've tried getting into it, but it seems very academic and with the nitty-gritty details conveniently left out, it gets frustrating trying to work out what exactly Solid _is_. I don't think Tim Berners-Lee is trying to sell us some vaporware, so has anyone got any pointer?
  - simongray 4y ago
    https://solidproject.org/apps https://solidproject.org/apps
- Swenrekcah 4y ago
  I agree that this won’t change anything significant until the law makes it mandatory, however a huge step towards getting the lawmakers to do so is tho have the tech already out there and working well with hundreds of smaller players. That will save us years of lobbyists claiming it’s unworkable, to expensive, technically impossible, etc.
  - ls15 4y ago
    > however a huge step towards getting the lawmakers to do so is tho have the tech already out there and working well with hundreds of smaller players. Not only this, but it will also prevent a scenario where the political will is given, but the tech does not exist yet and then the lowest bidder will implement it, instead of a genuinely interested group of players.
  - 4y ago
cimm 4y ago
I still don't understand how one can retract access once given. If I share my purchase history with some financial web app and later decide to retract access the web app will no longer get new data, but how can I be sure they don't keep a copy of my old data around? Same with GDPR. I often ask companies to remove my data, and legally they should, but I highly doubt many of them do indeed scrap all my data. I still need to trust the other party to honor my wishes (and follow the law) which makes me wonder if Solid or Schluss can help removing my data.
- Swizec 4y ago
  > Same with GDPR. I often ask companies to remove my data, and legally they should, but I highly doubt many of them do I was talking once with a friend who deals with GDPR issues at their company. They said that they’re required to keep a record of deletion requests so it can be spelunked through vendors for a full deletion. This often creates more data than was originally deleted.
- TrailMixRaisin 4y ago
  Of course there is still trust involved. Every time you cooperate with somebody else booth of you have some assumption what the other will do. You trust that a webshop will send you your product after you have bought it, etc. To give a foundation for this trust we have laws. It would be illegal to sell you a product and just keep the money without giving you the product. This is the same with data protection and GDPR. They could just say that they deleted it and keep a copy on their own. BUT using such systems or asking them (in a documented way) to delete your data is a really strong signal from your side what your assumptions are. This will make the fines much higher if a data protection authority would find out that a company kept the data when you have already shown your strong request to delete it. So in a way these mechanism should make it easier for you to trust the other side to do their part because the fines will just get bigger.
- PeterisP 4y ago
  The solution is social, not technical. The relevant authorities have the right to audit the process and do so in certain cases. Keeping your data after this request has a tiny benefit to the company - not that many people retract access, and one individual's data is not that valuable. On the other hand, intentionally keeping and using that carries significant financial risk of fines if found out; so a prudent organization simply won't do that - otherwise, it'll just be a huge expense for no good reason after e.g. some disgruntled ex-employee blows the whistle on this practice.
yetihehe 4y ago
"Information wants to be free (freely copied)", even when it's information about you. Freely copied means stored in many places. GDPR is in essence reverse-DRM. Normal DRM prevents you from copying and storing some company's information. GDPR prevents companies from copying and storing information about you. And we all know how good DRM works.
- croes 4y ago
  GDPR gives people the same leverage against companies as companies have against people because of DRM.
tagyro 4y ago
I like the idea and I think (and hope) someone (hopefully not a FAANG) will manage to build a product. As for schluss.org specifically, I don't see any reason to trust them. On a side note, I also find their "Responsible Disclosure" page at https://schluss.org/responsible-disclosure/ https://schluss.org/responsible-disclosure/ to say the least, funny: - "Your reward. We work as a community, in which you contribute to improve Schluss. With this you contribute to a better internet." - "If you meet all conditions, we will not submit legal proceedings against you." - "Any abuse of our systems in any way will be punished."
- z3c0 4y ago
  Indeed, it seems like we'd be hopping out of distributed frying pans into a centralized fire.
- cyberei 4y ago
  Well, "hacking is not allowed in the Netherlands". But honestly, I think what they're trying to say is, we're happy if you report issues, but please don't commit a legal offense. This policy will not absolve you.
  - 0des 4y ago
    but would their legal team concur with that interpretation if it embarrasses them in the headlines is the real question. Despite being considered an otherwise odious character, Andrew 'Weev' Auernheimer was prosecuted for essentially doing something that revealed a flaw in a major player while doing nothing illegal. Getting flamed in the media changes a lot.
Agamus 4y ago
If I have it right, this service would allow me to have another company between me and what I am trying to do when I use internet technology. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do this? I use things like noScript to specifically avoid this kind of thing. Do I need a service between me and Schluss, to ensure that they are following my laws?
makach 4y ago
yes, I agree with the concept, but not necessarily for the company to be managing this as a product on my behalf.
ThePhysicist 4y ago
Good idea in general, the term for this category of products is personal information management system (PIMS). digi.me is the largest player but even they can't seem to get any reasonable traction, as it's an uphill battle to convince third parties to integrate with you. Classical chicken & egg problem: If you have many users the integrations will come naturally, but users will only come when there are enough integrations. A large company like Apple would be in a better position to do something like this, and in principle Apple Pay does it already as merchants can e.g. request your shipping or billing address through that system.
toss1 4y ago
So, let's take all of our personal info that is being harvested by many organizations and further defragment & centralize it by giving it to one organization? What could go wrong? I like the idea of getting it out of control of the current harvesting orgs, but what makes this group more trustworthy? They seem great now, but when you are dealing with a corporation, things can change - their situation andmor leadership changes and the formerly trustworthy organization is now extracting everything they can from you. A much better model would be to store the data locally with your equipment (maybe offering e2e encrypted cloud backup such that they can't read it), and their service provides a hub controlling the gathering & distribution of info according to your rules/permissions. EDIT Typo in 1st line
- Agamus 4y ago
  The first thought that popped into my head when I was reading the pitch was, "Don't be evil". The second thought was, "basta!"
arberx 4y ago
Beautiful site but gives absolutely no information on how the product works.
Kinrany 4y ago
Seeing the Brexit slogan "take back control" used all over the place is so funny.
marcodiego 4y ago
The hardest part: almost nobody is willing to sacrifice the "convenience" or contribute to alternatives.
smcin 4y ago
schluss.org is currently not accessible
sjamaan 4y ago
Sounds like a for-profit version of IRMA (https://privacybydesign.foundation/irma-explanation/ https://privacybydesign.foundation/irma-explanation/)
AlanYx 4y ago
In case anyone was as mystified as I was by the original title of this submission, apparently "basta" is Italian for "enough, stop it".
torm 4y ago
"We dream of a world in which your information is yours once more" I don't recall when my information was really mine. Like ever. In pre-internet days I didn't even knew who had what about me. Well, anyway... They are offering ability to manage data accessibility - all that by my self! Seems like another good part of my life gone doing just that and worrying if I set everything correctly. Finally, I assume that once the 'pod' infrastructure goes down I can't use any of the apps - commercial or govt, right? naah, thanks
tyingq 4y ago
Curious about the name...Schlüssel, German for "key", seemed possible. But Schluss or Schlüsse, or Dutch versus German probably mean something else.
- anyfoo 4y ago
  If it’s German, it’s weird. In German “Schluss” is an end. It has different connotations from the other word for end, “das Ende”, which is more literally “the end”: “Schluss” is something like “it’s over, pack it up!” Technically it does come from a declination of “schließen”, which mostly means “close”, so I assume that’s where the idea comes from, but in this form it does not reflect normal usage. “Lock” would be “abschließen”, but “Abschluss” as a substantive also rather means “the end of something”. As a free standing word it’s just… weird. If it’s Dutch maybe it makes sense, don’t know Dutch!
  - hobofan 4y ago
    Nothing weird about it at all. Based on their footer ("Schluss. Basta. Stop.") it's supposed to be read as an exclamation. As an exclamation ("Schluss."/"Schluss!") it would be translated as "stop it!".
    - anyfoo 4y ago
      Ah, the footer clarifies they actually meant it like that. Makes sense then, thanks.
smm11 4y ago
Secure? On the 'internet?' Okay, then.

138 points by janandonly 4y ago

I don’t see this going anywhere unless a) it becomes costly/risky to hold customer data, b) it’s mandated by law, or c) there is massive customer demand Unfortunately I don’t see any of those on the horizon…

bobhageman 4y ago

Hi all, I work at Schluss, came across this topic and found it very informative. Thanks for all your comments and thoughts! We share your distrust against anyone making big claims. We also have been disappointed more than once. So, we get where you come from. We believe in dialogue. Therefore, we take each and every one of you serious. With what we are trying to achieve we know we have a major challenge up ahead. We take it to the extreme: Schluss does not want to have any knowledge about its users and usage. The company at this moment is a foundation (no shares!) with the sole purpose to become a cooperative. This way every user is co-owner. On the technical side, the system must be decentralized and distributed and we want to stay away from vendor lock-ins. You as a user will own and control what is yours. No one will know of your existence or have access to your data unless you want so. This is complex and difficult to achieve because there is so much to take into account. And even though we're building a few years already, we know we're just getting started. Our software is, of course, open source and BSD licensed. See our repo's here: https://gitlab.com/schluss https://gitlab.com/schluss.

shafyy 4y ago

Idea-wise, this seems similar to Tim Berners-Lee's Solid (https://solidproject.org/ https://solidproject.org/). The problem with these approaches is that no significant company is going to do this voluntarily. And this is not going to make a dent until Meta, Apple and friends do it. They are not going to do it because it doesn't give them an advantage, it only makes their lifes harder. It makes it harder even if they don't use the data for anything, because of increased technical complexity etc. So, this is not a technology problem, but a legal/political problem. Just as the EU is forcing big messaging apps to ensure interoperability now, the only thing that will make a difference here is a law that disallows companies from saving customer data in their own databases. A GDPR 2.0. If you want to make a difference in this space, you need to spend your time pushing new legislation. I'm sure that in time the EU will get there. And then we will need good tech like Schluss or Solid. But before then, it's not going to do anything.

ButterWashed 4y ago
Tim Berners-Lee's startup Inrupt [0] is essentially trying to partner with companies to sell an enterprise version of the Solid Project software. Their website suggests they've partnered with some large-ish companies already[1]. I could see a webpage prompting you for a release of your certain parts of your 'pod' rather than use cookies perhaps. [0] https://inrupt.com/ https://inrupt.com/ [1] https://inrupt.com/solid-enterprise-natwest-bbc https://inrupt.com/solid-enterprise-natwest-bbc
sph 4y ago
Does Solid have a concrete working example? I've tried getting into it, but it seems very academic and with the nitty-gritty details conveniently left out, it gets frustrating trying to work out what exactly Solid _is_. I don't think Tim Berners-Lee is trying to sell us some vaporware, so has anyone got any pointer?
- simongray 4y ago
  https://solidproject.org/apps https://solidproject.org/apps
Swenrekcah 4y ago
I agree that this won’t change anything significant until the law makes it mandatory, however a huge step towards getting the lawmakers to do so is tho have the tech already out there and working well with hundreds of smaller players. That will save us years of lobbyists claiming it’s unworkable, to expensive, technically impossible, etc.
- ls15 4y ago
  > however a huge step towards getting the lawmakers to do so is tho have the tech already out there and working well with hundreds of smaller players. Not only this, but it will also prevent a scenario where the political will is given, but the tech does not exist yet and then the lowest bidder will implement it, instead of a genuinely interested group of players.
- 4y ago

cimm 4y ago

I still don't understand how one can retract access once given. If I share my purchase history with some financial web app and later decide to retract access the web app will no longer get new data, but how can I be sure they don't keep a copy of my old data around? Same with GDPR. I often ask companies to remove my data, and legally they should, but I highly doubt many of them do indeed scrap all my data. I still need to trust the other party to honor my wishes (and follow the law) which makes me wonder if Solid or Schluss can help removing my data.

Swizec 4y ago
> Same with GDPR. I often ask companies to remove my data, and legally they should, but I highly doubt many of them do I was talking once with a friend who deals with GDPR issues at their company. They said that they’re required to keep a record of deletion requests so it can be spelunked through vendors for a full deletion. This often creates more data than was originally deleted.
TrailMixRaisin 4y ago
Of course there is still trust involved. Every time you cooperate with somebody else booth of you have some assumption what the other will do. You trust that a webshop will send you your product after you have bought it, etc. To give a foundation for this trust we have laws. It would be illegal to sell you a product and just keep the money without giving you the product. This is the same with data protection and GDPR. They could just say that they deleted it and keep a copy on their own. BUT using such systems or asking them (in a documented way) to delete your data is a really strong signal from your side what your assumptions are. This will make the fines much higher if a data protection authority would find out that a company kept the data when you have already shown your strong request to delete it. So in a way these mechanism should make it easier for you to trust the other side to do their part because the fines will just get bigger.
PeterisP 4y ago
The solution is social, not technical. The relevant authorities have the right to audit the process and do so in certain cases. Keeping your data after this request has a tiny benefit to the company - not that many people retract access, and one individual's data is not that valuable. On the other hand, intentionally keeping and using that carries significant financial risk of fines if found out; so a prudent organization simply won't do that - otherwise, it'll just be a huge expense for no good reason after e.g. some disgruntled ex-employee blows the whistle on this practice.

yetihehe 4y ago

"Information wants to be free (freely copied)", even when it's information about you. Freely copied means stored in many places. GDPR is in essence reverse-DRM. Normal DRM prevents you from copying and storing some company's information. GDPR prevents companies from copying and storing information about you. And we all know how good DRM works.

croes 4y ago
GDPR gives people the same leverage against companies as companies have against people because of DRM.

tagyro 4y ago

I like the idea and I think (and hope) someone (hopefully not a FAANG) will manage to build a product. As for schluss.org specifically, I don't see any reason to trust them. On a side note, I also find their "Responsible Disclosure" page at https://schluss.org/responsible-disclosure/ https://schluss.org/responsible-disclosure/ to say the least, funny: - "Your reward. We work as a community, in which you contribute to improve Schluss. With this you contribute to a better internet." - "If you meet all conditions, we will not submit legal proceedings against you." - "Any abuse of our systems in any way will be punished."

z3c0 4y ago
Indeed, it seems like we'd be hopping out of distributed frying pans into a centralized fire.
cyberei 4y ago
Well, "hacking is not allowed in the Netherlands". But honestly, I think what they're trying to say is, we're happy if you report issues, but please don't commit a legal offense. This policy will not absolve you.
- 0des 4y ago
  but would their legal team concur with that interpretation if it embarrasses them in the headlines is the real question. Despite being considered an otherwise odious character, Andrew 'Weev' Auernheimer was prosecuted for essentially doing something that revealed a flaw in a major player while doing nothing illegal. Getting flamed in the media changes a lot.

Agamus 4y ago

If I have it right, this service would allow me to have another company between me and what I am trying to do when I use internet technology. Why on earth would anyone in their right mind do this? I use things like noScript to specifically avoid this kind of thing. Do I need a service between me and Schluss, to ensure that they are following my laws?

makach 4y ago

yes, I agree with the concept, but not necessarily for the company to be managing this as a product on my behalf.

ThePhysicist 4y ago

Good idea in general, the term for this category of products is personal information management system (PIMS). digi.me is the largest player but even they can't seem to get any reasonable traction, as it's an uphill battle to convince third parties to integrate with you. Classical chicken & egg problem: If you have many users the integrations will come naturally, but users will only come when there are enough integrations. A large company like Apple would be in a better position to do something like this, and in principle Apple Pay does it already as merchants can e.g. request your shipping or billing address through that system.

toss1 4y ago

So, let's take all of our personal info that is being harvested by many organizations and further defragment & centralize it by giving it to one organization? What could go wrong? I like the idea of getting it out of control of the current harvesting orgs, but what makes this group more trustworthy? They seem great now, but when you are dealing with a corporation, things can change - their situation andmor leadership changes and the formerly trustworthy organization is now extracting everything they can from you. A much better model would be to store the data locally with your equipment (maybe offering e2e encrypted cloud backup such that they can't read it), and their service provides a hub controlling the gathering & distribution of info according to your rules/permissions. EDIT Typo in 1st line

Agamus 4y ago
The first thought that popped into my head when I was reading the pitch was, "Don't be evil". The second thought was, "basta!"

arberx 4y ago

Beautiful site but gives absolutely no information on how the product works.

Kinrany 4y ago

Seeing the Brexit slogan "take back control" used all over the place is so funny.

marcodiego 4y ago

The hardest part: almost nobody is willing to sacrifice the "convenience" or contribute to alternatives.

smcin 4y ago

schluss.org is currently not accessible

sjamaan 4y ago

Sounds like a for-profit version of IRMA (https://privacybydesign.foundation/irma-explanation/ https://privacybydesign.foundation/irma-explanation/)

AlanYx 4y ago

In case anyone was as mystified as I was by the original title of this submission, apparently "basta" is Italian for "enough, stop it".

torm 4y ago

"We dream of a world in which your information is yours once more" I don't recall when my information was really mine. Like ever. In pre-internet days I didn't even knew who had what about me. Well, anyway... They are offering ability to manage data accessibility - all that by my self! Seems like another good part of my life gone doing just that and worrying if I set everything correctly. Finally, I assume that once the 'pod' infrastructure goes down I can't use any of the apps - commercial or govt, right? naah, thanks

tyingq 4y ago

Curious about the name...Schlüssel, German for "key", seemed possible. But Schluss or Schlüsse, or Dutch versus German probably mean something else.

anyfoo 4y ago
If it’s German, it’s weird. In German “Schluss” is an end. It has different connotations from the other word for end, “das Ende”, which is more literally “the end”: “Schluss” is something like “it’s over, pack it up!” Technically it does come from a declination of “schließen”, which mostly means “close”, so I assume that’s where the idea comes from, but in this form it does not reflect normal usage. “Lock” would be “abschließen”, but “Abschluss” as a substantive also rather means “the end of something”. As a free standing word it’s just… weird. If it’s Dutch maybe it makes sense, don’t know Dutch!
- hobofan 4y ago
  Nothing weird about it at all. Based on their footer ("Schluss. Basta. Stop.") it's supposed to be read as an exclamation. As an exclamation ("Schluss."/"Schluss!") it would be translated as "stop it!".
  - anyfoo 4y ago
    Ah, the footer clarifies they actually meant it like that. Makes sense then, thanks.

smm11 4y ago

Secure? On the 'internet?' Okay, then.