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So, what are we going to do about this? We've known that the whole crypto scene in general is a fraudulent, cynical ploy to get rich at other people's expense.

So, what are we going to do about this? We've known that the whole crypto scene in general is a fraudulent, cynical ploy to get rich at other people's expense. Any conversation with anyone involved in the industry quickly reveals that their goal is to get rich from asset speculation. And that means for them to win, someone else must lose. The thing that the article describes is an inevitable consequence of this process. This story will play out again and again - gullible people getting their lives ruined by "investing" in crypto because they believed a bunch of blatant lies about it. This is fraud. There needs to be consequences, and the liars going to jail for deliberately destroying other people's lives.

bowsamic 4y ago
> Any conversation with anyone involved in the industry quickly reveals that their goal is to get rich from asset speculation. Do you really think if you ask Charles Hoskinson (creator of Cardano) this, then this will become clear? If so why bother with so much peer-reviewed academic research? Is that all part of the scam? Similar question about Vitalik > This is fraud. There needs to be consequences, and the liars going to jail for deliberately destroying other people's lives. I guess you haven't kept up on the news of how the South Korean government are dealing with Do Kwon and co.
- marcus_holmes 4y ago
  they have all profited by destroying other people's lives. It's possible that they didn't know that's where the money was coming from. But unlikely, because they're smart people and they have extensive knowledge of this industry. Where did they think the money was coming from, if not ultimately gullible individuals whose lives are being ruined by this?
  - bowsamic 4y ago
    Okay so if I ask them it won't become clear? You seem to have changed this from "they will make it clear they are scammers" to "I think they are scammers" Also, there is a lot of VC money in Cardano and Ethereum
    - marcus_holmes 4y ago
      and that VC money is chasing a return, which is coming from gullible people. I think there's a lot of hand-waving and bullshit before we get to the "yes, this is ultimately funded by speculators, and a lot of those speculators are uninformed people putting their life savings at risk". But that's where the conversations I've had with crypto people end up.
      - bowsamic 4y ago
        Can you link to a case where Charles or Vitalik clearly admit they are scammers or have the intention to scam?
        marcus_holmes 4y ago
        I haven't had a conversation with either of these people, so I think you're asking me to answer a different question.
TrackerFF 4y ago
We need to regulate stablecoins, and we need to regulate Web3 entities like regular companies. And I believe regulations are coming. Regulations don't conjure out of thin air - but tend to be the result of people or governments getting screwed over.
- MadeThisToReply 4y ago
  The whole point of crypto is that it's not regulated. As soon as the regulators take real action on crypto, the entire promise of crypto will vanish in a puff of smoke. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I struggle to envision what a tightly-regulated crypto market would look like that wouldn't defy the entire point of crypto.
  - hackerfromthefu 4y ago
    And this is an existential risks for crypto, another way it could lose 100%
  - TrackerFF 4y ago
    Indeed, regulation in the anti-thesis of crypto, and what crypto enthusiasts detest - but if crypto has any plans of going mainstream, regulations will have to be in place. I think that regulations would come in the form of how so-called stablecoins and their owner companies can operate, how other companies (exchanges, etc.) can operate, and so on. Take stablecoins - one might regulate these with hard requirements of how many % of their backing are in extremely liquid assets. Take tether - the idea is that it should be backed 1-to-1 with USD. Of course, that is not the case, at all. The owners have said that it's not backed at such ratio. With extremely opaque stablecoins, you really have no idea what they're backed by. Imagine if stablecoin xyz said "We're 99.99% backed by [some currency]!" but then it turns out that they're backed 5% by said currency, and the rest has been put on the stock market - because the owners figured they could get filthy rich by betting all that money on low-risk stocks. Works until it doesn't work, and then people do a run on the coin. So, regular audits, full transparency, hard regulations around what they can or can't do. That alone will probably flush out the majority of fly-by-night scams. I think it is understood that most people are in it for huge and quick gains. Some crytpo fundamentalists will say that they're in it "for the tech", but I would be very, very surprised if that was the case for majority of crypto holders. So you are right - a regulated crypto space will probably drive out many of the speculators and gamblers, but I think that's OK. In the end there's a need for cheap and efficient cross-boarder payments, without having massive companies as middle-men. But to achieve true mainstream adaption, that will come at costs. The wild-west days are closing up.
tim333 4y ago
>And that means for them to win, someone else must lose Not necessarily if the crypto assets maintain long term value. I doubt people who bought bitcoin at $100 feel like losers out of it.
- marcus_holmes 4y ago
  who are they going to sell those bitcoin to at that raised value? who are those people going to sell them to at a greater value? the only "value" it has is that someone believes that they can sell it for more. eventually that stops being true and someone loses all the money that everyone else gained. It's zero-sum, it has to be, because the bitcoin itself produces nothing of value.
BeFlatXIII 4y ago
I look at it the other way: play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

bowsamic 4y ago

> Any conversation with anyone involved in the industry quickly reveals that their goal is to get rich from asset speculation. Do you really think if you ask Charles Hoskinson (creator of Cardano) this, then this will become clear? If so why bother with so much peer-reviewed academic research? Is that all part of the scam? Similar question about Vitalik > This is fraud. There needs to be consequences, and the liars going to jail for deliberately destroying other people's lives. I guess you haven't kept up on the news of how the South Korean government are dealing with Do Kwon and co.

marcus_holmes 4y ago
they have all profited by destroying other people's lives. It's possible that they didn't know that's where the money was coming from. But unlikely, because they're smart people and they have extensive knowledge of this industry. Where did they think the money was coming from, if not ultimately gullible individuals whose lives are being ruined by this?
- bowsamic 4y ago
  Okay so if I ask them it won't become clear? You seem to have changed this from "they will make it clear they are scammers" to "I think they are scammers" Also, there is a lot of VC money in Cardano and Ethereum
  - marcus_holmes 4y ago
    and that VC money is chasing a return, which is coming from gullible people. I think there's a lot of hand-waving and bullshit before we get to the "yes, this is ultimately funded by speculators, and a lot of those speculators are uninformed people putting their life savings at risk". But that's where the conversations I've had with crypto people end up.
    - bowsamic 4y ago
      Can you link to a case where Charles or Vitalik clearly admit they are scammers or have the intention to scam?
      - marcus_holmes 4y ago
        I haven't had a conversation with either of these people, so I think you're asking me to answer a different question.

TrackerFF 4y ago

We need to regulate stablecoins, and we need to regulate Web3 entities like regular companies. And I believe regulations are coming. Regulations don't conjure out of thin air - but tend to be the result of people or governments getting screwed over.

MadeThisToReply 4y ago
The whole point of crypto is that it's not regulated. As soon as the regulators take real action on crypto, the entire promise of crypto will vanish in a puff of smoke. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but I struggle to envision what a tightly-regulated crypto market would look like that wouldn't defy the entire point of crypto.
- hackerfromthefu 4y ago
  And this is an existential risks for crypto, another way it could lose 100%
- TrackerFF 4y ago
  Indeed, regulation in the anti-thesis of crypto, and what crypto enthusiasts detest - but if crypto has any plans of going mainstream, regulations will have to be in place. I think that regulations would come in the form of how so-called stablecoins and their owner companies can operate, how other companies (exchanges, etc.) can operate, and so on. Take stablecoins - one might regulate these with hard requirements of how many % of their backing are in extremely liquid assets. Take tether - the idea is that it should be backed 1-to-1 with USD. Of course, that is not the case, at all. The owners have said that it's not backed at such ratio. With extremely opaque stablecoins, you really have no idea what they're backed by. Imagine if stablecoin xyz said "We're 99.99% backed by [some currency]!" but then it turns out that they're backed 5% by said currency, and the rest has been put on the stock market - because the owners figured they could get filthy rich by betting all that money on low-risk stocks. Works until it doesn't work, and then people do a run on the coin. So, regular audits, full transparency, hard regulations around what they can or can't do. That alone will probably flush out the majority of fly-by-night scams. I think it is understood that most people are in it for huge and quick gains. Some crytpo fundamentalists will say that they're in it "for the tech", but I would be very, very surprised if that was the case for majority of crypto holders. So you are right - a regulated crypto space will probably drive out many of the speculators and gamblers, but I think that's OK. In the end there's a need for cheap and efficient cross-boarder payments, without having massive companies as middle-men. But to achieve true mainstream adaption, that will come at costs. The wild-west days are closing up.

tim333 4y ago

>And that means for them to win, someone else must lose Not necessarily if the crypto assets maintain long term value. I doubt people who bought bitcoin at $100 feel like losers out of it.

marcus_holmes 4y ago
who are they going to sell those bitcoin to at that raised value? who are those people going to sell them to at a greater value? the only "value" it has is that someone believes that they can sell it for more. eventually that stops being true and someone loses all the money that everyone else gained. It's zero-sum, it has to be, because the bitcoin itself produces nothing of value.

BeFlatXIII 4y ago

I look at it the other way: play stupid games, win stupid prizes.