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I think the argument here is that recent research indicates that a chronic lack of sleep can cause Alzheimer’s, and I don’t think most people realize that. Beyo

I think the argument here is that recent research indicates that a chronic lack of sleep can cause Alzheimer’s, and I don’t think most people realize that. Beyond that, telling people to try to get more sleep is not really medicine. It’s not really specific or actionable, and it doesn’t help people with understanding how to get more and better sleep. Doctors should ask how much sleep people are getting and recommend sleep studies if there sleep isn’t sufficient. There are also specific things that people can do to make it more likely that they get more and better sleep, and doctors should be going over these. Home sleep trackers are much cheaper and easier to use these days, and it seems that there would be a benefit for everyone to wear one, at least part of the year, to have data to give to their doctor. We now have the means to really see if people are sleeping enough or not, and I suspect the issue in the past is that it is hard for people to accurately judge their own sleep performance. It’s not just sleep length that matters, but rather sleep quality — specifically you want to make sure you are getting enough REM and slow wave sleep. So while we do need therapeutic interventions for people who already have Alzheimer’s, we really aren’t doing anything to prevent people from getting it in the first place. I was listening to a podcast with neurophysiologist Louisa Nicola, and I swear she said that 95% of Alzheimer’s is now seen in people without a genetic predisposition to it. That is to say that people’s lifestyle decisions around sleep, food, and exercise are the issue. Here is a link to the podcast (no transcript unfortunately): https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/whoop-podcast/id1445509665?i=1000566451303 https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/whoop-podcast/id144550...

agentofoblivion 4y ago
> Doctors should… > I was listening to a podcast… HN comments in a nutshell.
- vba616 4y ago
  Remember, anyone can comment here. It doesn't cost a thing and doesn't even require a valid email. Think about that before you go off on your hobby horse about whatever stereotype you despise the most. Anybody you could find on reddit or anywhere else can comment here if they find it and want to. I think it was years before I even knew who Peter Thiel was, and I've never been to California in my life.
vba616 4y ago
>recent research indicates that a chronic lack of sleep can cause Alzheimer’s Why on earth do people (you're not alone, I know) prefer to assume that direction of causation, rather than that the underlying condition that leads to Alzheimer's causes sleep disorders too? It's well known that sleep disorders are associated with other neurological or mental disorders. I think there is a pervasive disease of thinking where people associate science and smart people with counterintuitive statements, so every obvious relationship gets inverted. And can you answer the basic question of why sleep is even necessary at all? Lack of sleep is eventually lethal, and I read a very interesting study a couple years ago that seemed to have a plausible mechanism and stunningly reasonable methodology, but I haven't heard anything about it since then. So I still don't know if it was fake or something, because it seemed like it should get a Nobel Prize. Although it used fruit flies so perhaps it didn't generalize.
- birksherty 4y ago
  Where is the proof that sleep loss does not cause Alzheimer’s and only reverse is true?
  - vba616 4y ago
    For the sake of argument, let's say that we're not allowed to question the claim that "sleep loss causes Alzheimer's". How is that an explanation? Something has to drive the sleep disorder. It's too vague to be blaming for anything. It's not a thing.
    - birksherty 4y ago
      We should question and find proof. But should not dismiss the possibility without looking. May be there are multiple thing that drives sleep disorder and and then that causes Alzheimer.
- throwawaymaths 4y ago
  While you may be right (FFI fatal familial insomnia, not foreign function interface) is an amyloid disease and the amyloid seems to cause insomnia, not vice versa -- there are some real proposed mechanisms suggesting that lack of sleep prevents clearance of junk in the brain, that then cause the cell death associated with Alzheimer's. It's generally known that after 3 or 4 days of total sleeplessness there is permanent psychological damage which is probably physiological in nature. IIRC There was a radio show host who hosted his show for several days straight as a stunt and it really messed him up.
quickthrower2 4y ago
> if there sleep isn’t sufficient Sleep studies can tell if you have sleep apnea, where you might "think" you had a full night's sleep, but it was disturbed by disrupted breathing. So it might be worth getting one anyway. Hopefully the tech will get to the point where your fitness watch can do it all. The last sleep study kit I had was quite bulky and wearing it probably affected my sleep!
- hezralig 4y ago
  More often then not, they tell you 'inconclusive' results unless you are observed snoring and waking or having some sort of sleep obstruction. And then you get to pay a $3-4k bill for the worst night of sleep of your life, if you were in the States. I really have the least amount of respect for sleep clinics I have had the displeasure of working with.
  - quickthrower2 4y ago
    $3-4k sounds steep? I guess that is where they provide the accommodation. I had a take home one and it was much cheaper (privately paid IIRC, not subsidized by government). Outside of the US.
    - hezralig 4y ago
      They provide the accommodation and then have like 10 people being monitored by 1-2 technicians overnight. It is pretty lame to be billed the amount they did for the equivalent of a couple hundred dollars of overhead and then manhours.
  - tallanvor 4y ago
    The problem is that we don't understand most sleep disorders. Sleep apnea is the most common sleep disorder, and it's easy to identify with equipment that you take home and use for a night. If you have it, there are different treatment options depending on the cause. Other disorders are more difficult to treat, and sometimes they just don't have an answer. I'm still struggling with my sleep issues - they can describe it based on a full sleep study, but there's not a good categorization for it in the DSM, which means they can't even say if it's physiological, psychological, or a combination of the two. That makes it very hard to treat.
geokon 4y ago
Genuine question. How is sleep tracker information actionable? I never quite understood what you're supposed to do with all the information about when you fall asleep, when you awake, when you have REM. Okay you can quantify how bad your sleep is (though I guess you can just feel that in your daily life to a large extent). But what's the next step? Prove to a doctor you actually have bad sleep bc they don't take your word? Or are you supposed to make some life adjustments based on the information?
- kurthr 4y ago
  If you know what times you normally enter Deep/REM sleep, you know what times it's important to get to sleep by and to not be disturbed at those points in the night. They certainly vary by person and environment, but night to night they are fairly stable. Also, a lot of people are in denial about their sleep issues, "I don't hear any snoring".
danachow 4y ago
> Alzheimer’s is now seen in people without a genetic predisposition to it. That is to say that people’s lifestyle decisions around sleep, food, and exercise are the issue. Or perhaps it’s just idiopathic/random/aging or environmental exposures that are less to do with lifestyle decisions. I’ve known plenty of people with Alzheimer’s and many of them tend to have had healthy lifestyles including healthy sleep - I would love to see any data that implicates meaningful risk reduction with “one weird trick” in sleep or diet - the common denominator was mostly old age.
bryanrasmussen 4y ago
>a chronic lack of sleep can cause Alzheimer’s, and I don’t think most people realize that. I'm certainly aware there is a correlation, but unfortunately my life is not so structured that I can get sufficient sleep.
BrandoElFollito 4y ago
> Home sleep trackers are much cheaper and easier to use these days Would you have a reference for such a device? I assume that this is not an app in a phone, but something that actually measures the sleep phases?
stef25 4y ago
> neurophysiologist Louisa Nicola Had a quick look at her Instagram - "80% of brain gray matter is modifiable by exercise so by hitting the gym you can now stave off Alzheimer's by 20 years" > 95% of Alzheimer’s is now seen in people without a genetic predisposition to it That's with our current knowledge of the genetic aspects of Alzheimer's, which probably isn't complete. > That is to say that people’s lifestyle decisions around sleep, food, and exercise are the issue Could be due to other reasons as well. Or most likely a combination of genetic + environmental. That's why these kind of illnesses (schizophrenia, depression) are so hard to crack, there's so many variables.

agentofoblivion 4y ago

> Doctors should… > I was listening to a podcast… HN comments in a nutshell.

vba616 4y ago
Remember, anyone can comment here. It doesn't cost a thing and doesn't even require a valid email. Think about that before you go off on your hobby horse about whatever stereotype you despise the most. Anybody you could find on reddit or anywhere else can comment here if they find it and want to. I think it was years before I even knew who Peter Thiel was, and I've never been to California in my life.

vba616 4y ago

>recent research indicates that a chronic lack of sleep can cause Alzheimer’s Why on earth do people (you're not alone, I know) prefer to assume that direction of causation, rather than that the underlying condition that leads to Alzheimer's causes sleep disorders too? It's well known that sleep disorders are associated with other neurological or mental disorders. I think there is a pervasive disease of thinking where people associate science and smart people with counterintuitive statements, so every obvious relationship gets inverted. And can you answer the basic question of why sleep is even necessary at all? Lack of sleep is eventually lethal, and I read a very interesting study a couple years ago that seemed to have a plausible mechanism and stunningly reasonable methodology, but I haven't heard anything about it since then. So I still don't know if it was fake or something, because it seemed like it should get a Nobel Prize. Although it used fruit flies so perhaps it didn't generalize.

birksherty 4y ago
Where is the proof that sleep loss does not cause Alzheimer’s and only reverse is true?
- vba616 4y ago
  For the sake of argument, let's say that we're not allowed to question the claim that "sleep loss causes Alzheimer's". How is that an explanation? Something has to drive the sleep disorder. It's too vague to be blaming for anything. It's not a thing.
  - birksherty 4y ago
    We should question and find proof. But should not dismiss the possibility without looking. May be there are multiple thing that drives sleep disorder and and then that causes Alzheimer.
throwawaymaths 4y ago
While you may be right (FFI fatal familial insomnia, not foreign function interface) is an amyloid disease and the amyloid seems to cause insomnia, not vice versa -- there are some real proposed mechanisms suggesting that lack of sleep prevents clearance of junk in the brain, that then cause the cell death associated with Alzheimer's. It's generally known that after 3 or 4 days of total sleeplessness there is permanent psychological damage which is probably physiological in nature. IIRC There was a radio show host who hosted his show for several days straight as a stunt and it really messed him up.

quickthrower2 4y ago

> if there sleep isn’t sufficient Sleep studies can tell if you have sleep apnea, where you might "think" you had a full night's sleep, but it was disturbed by disrupted breathing. So it might be worth getting one anyway. Hopefully the tech will get to the point where your fitness watch can do it all. The last sleep study kit I had was quite bulky and wearing it probably affected my sleep!

hezralig 4y ago
More often then not, they tell you 'inconclusive' results unless you are observed snoring and waking or having some sort of sleep obstruction. And then you get to pay a $3-4k bill for the worst night of sleep of your life, if you were in the States. I really have the least amount of respect for sleep clinics I have had the displeasure of working with.
- quickthrower2 4y ago
  $3-4k sounds steep? I guess that is where they provide the accommodation. I had a take home one and it was much cheaper (privately paid IIRC, not subsidized by government). Outside of the US.
  - hezralig 4y ago
    They provide the accommodation and then have like 10 people being monitored by 1-2 technicians overnight. It is pretty lame to be billed the amount they did for the equivalent of a couple hundred dollars of overhead and then manhours.
- tallanvor 4y ago
  The problem is that we don't understand most sleep disorders. Sleep apnea is the most common sleep disorder, and it's easy to identify with equipment that you take home and use for a night. If you have it, there are different treatment options depending on the cause. Other disorders are more difficult to treat, and sometimes they just don't have an answer. I'm still struggling with my sleep issues - they can describe it based on a full sleep study, but there's not a good categorization for it in the DSM, which means they can't even say if it's physiological, psychological, or a combination of the two. That makes it very hard to treat.

geokon 4y ago

Genuine question. How is sleep tracker information actionable? I never quite understood what you're supposed to do with all the information about when you fall asleep, when you awake, when you have REM. Okay you can quantify how bad your sleep is (though I guess you can just feel that in your daily life to a large extent). But what's the next step? Prove to a doctor you actually have bad sleep bc they don't take your word? Or are you supposed to make some life adjustments based on the information?

kurthr 4y ago
If you know what times you normally enter Deep/REM sleep, you know what times it's important to get to sleep by and to not be disturbed at those points in the night. They certainly vary by person and environment, but night to night they are fairly stable. Also, a lot of people are in denial about their sleep issues, "I don't hear any snoring".

danachow 4y ago

> Alzheimer’s is now seen in people without a genetic predisposition to it. That is to say that people’s lifestyle decisions around sleep, food, and exercise are the issue. Or perhaps it’s just idiopathic/random/aging or environmental exposures that are less to do with lifestyle decisions. I’ve known plenty of people with Alzheimer’s and many of them tend to have had healthy lifestyles including healthy sleep - I would love to see any data that implicates meaningful risk reduction with “one weird trick” in sleep or diet - the common denominator was mostly old age.

bryanrasmussen 4y ago

>a chronic lack of sleep can cause Alzheimer’s, and I don’t think most people realize that. I'm certainly aware there is a correlation, but unfortunately my life is not so structured that I can get sufficient sleep.

BrandoElFollito 4y ago

> Home sleep trackers are much cheaper and easier to use these days Would you have a reference for such a device? I assume that this is not an app in a phone, but something that actually measures the sleep phases?

stef25 4y ago

> neurophysiologist Louisa Nicola Had a quick look at her Instagram - "80% of brain gray matter is modifiable by exercise so by hitting the gym you can now stave off Alzheimer's by 20 years" > 95% of Alzheimer’s is now seen in people without a genetic predisposition to it That's with our current knowledge of the genetic aspects of Alzheimer's, which probably isn't complete. > That is to say that people’s lifestyle decisions around sleep, food, and exercise are the issue Could be due to other reasons as well. Or most likely a combination of genetic + environmental. That's why these kind of illnesses (schizophrenia, depression) are so hard to crack, there's so many variables.