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So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. And why is this any better? You on

So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. And why is this any better? You only care about animal suffering because you are an animal who can suffer yourself. Your ideology remains selfish an self-centered. You don't care about killing a potato because the potato doesn't bleed and try to run away. You're still only thinking about yourself whle pretending to think of others. Anyway it's a muddled and confused ideology that you obviously haven't thought about very carefully. > Several government health organizations have already stated that humans can get adequate nutrition from plant-based foods alone. No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" (or words to that effect) vegan diet can be healthy. But only if it is carefully supplemented with all the nutrients that are missing from plant-only diets, such as B12 vitamins. Vegans are supposed to know that and still most do not get enough B12 to stay healthy: > Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications. https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... In extreme cases, vegans have fed their children their ideologically-driven diets and have caused serious damage to their childrens' health, even death: https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 Vegan diest are not healthy. They are lacking in essential nutrients and are only so popular because most people who eat them, do not understand the danger to their health.

uxcolumbo 4y ago
> So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. And why do you keep comparing animals to potatoes? As noted before, it's a scientific fact that plants are not the same as animals. They don't have pain receptors or a central nervous system. Most probably the reason why they didn't evolve mechanism to 'run away'. Here is another thought experiment for you. If you had to choose between the following 2 jobs, which one would you choose. Please answer if you can: A) Work on the kill floor in a slaughterhouse. To quote a former slaughter house worker "the one thing you can never really understand unless you’ve been there – is the smell. The blood, such an acrid, thick scent, it feels like it physically travels inside your nose and stays there. The fear has its own scent. It’s not something I could put into words, but even now, I would recognize it. It’s physically hard too. These animals know what’s coming, and believe me, they fight against death with every fibre of their being." B) Work in a vegetable or fruit processing plant. FYI, slaughterhouse workers suffer from PTSD. MMA fighter Mike Bisping worked in a slaughterhouse and couldn't last 2 weeks. So, could you work on the kill floor? If not - why pay others, who might not have any other option - just so we can have our meat. > No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" Well planned simply means choosing plant-based foods that provide the nutrients you need. Same counts for meat eaters. Meat eaters have been advised to supplement D3. And according to the article you linked it says: "Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency. Two subgroups of vegans are at particular risk of B12 deficiency: long-term vegans who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own intake of B12 is low." It says most vegans have no problems. Some who are on a raw fruit / veg diet - yes they lack nutrients and need to supplement. So using that very small group to back up your argument that a plant-based diet is unhealthy is dishonest. Supplementation is easy. Just eat fortified foods or consume B12, which is extremely cheap to buy. > Vegan diet are not healthy. Your statement goes against many nutrition experts. Not only is a plant-based diet healthy, it can also prevent chronic diseases. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics with over 112,000 members is one of the largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. Here is their stance on plant-based diets: "Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment [...] not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer." And you seem to think you know better than 17,000 Physicians who are campaigning for a plant-based diet - https://www.pcrm.org/about-us https://www.pcrm.org/about-us Furthermore - tell this to the various athletes who are thriving on a plant-based diet. See https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/ Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. If you don't support the large scale animal agriculture industry and mostly consume plant-based dishes then that's great! More power to you. But I encourage you to review your stance on animal well-being / rights and not just view them the same as potatoes. Eating animals when it's not required for survival means that they have to be exploited and killed and for what? Tradition and taste? Here is Damian Mander (ex special forces guy) on how to protect animals: https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 Same question as before - if you can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why wouldn't you?
- cheese_goddess 4y ago
  > FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. Nah, actually, not a nice try. Just even more typical vegan dishonesty and trying to win an argument by peddling lies. > It says most vegans have no problems. Nope. It says most vegans aren't clinically deficient. But it says very clearly that most vegans also have low homocysteine levels that put them at risk of heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications. > Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. That's calling the kettle black, coming from a vegan (I mean, assuming you are vegan). My handle, which seems to trigger vegans on HN, is chosen because I'm an amateur cheesemaker and I had thought when I created it that I could contribute to discussions with my empirical knowledge of cheesemaking and some little things I know about dairy science and technology. But it just so happens that any HN thread on anything to do with food is immediately invaded by hungry vegans keen on spreading their ideology. So I keep getting embroiled in these silly little internet arguments with people like you, who care nothing about anything but getting people to agree that eating meat is bad. I don't even eat that much meat. I eat it maybe ... once a week? Every two weeks? It's not like I'm keeping count. I eat beef maybe once every five years, because I don't like it. I grew up on a Mediterrannean diet and I still cook and eat that way. I find the people who say we should eat only meat about as mad as vegans, and about as unhealthy. So no, it's nothing to do with identity. It's just that all that stuff you say is mad. That we should eat only plants is as mad as saying we should eat only meat. It is mad people saying mad stuff on the mad internet. Mad mad mad. > Your statement goes against many nutrition experts It doesn't. What goes against those physicians you list is research that consistently finds that vegans are lacking in basic nutrients, that older vegans have more health issues, and that children fed vegan diets by their parents end up stunted, or dead. I linked to a bunch of those above and further down this sorry excuse for a thread. Why are all those physicians contradicting common research findings? Well, I have no clue. But I know who I'm siding with. The 17,000 "physicians" saying that it's fine to cut out a major food group from your diet? Or the researchers who say that if you do, you're in risk of malnutrition? Guess which one makes more sense.

uxcolumbo 4y ago

> So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. And why do you keep comparing animals to potatoes? As noted before, it's a scientific fact that plants are not the same as animals. They don't have pain receptors or a central nervous system. Most probably the reason why they didn't evolve mechanism to 'run away'. Here is another thought experiment for you. If you had to choose between the following 2 jobs, which one would you choose. Please answer if you can: A) Work on the kill floor in a slaughterhouse. To quote a former slaughter house worker "the one thing you can never really understand unless you’ve been there – is the smell. The blood, such an acrid, thick scent, it feels like it physically travels inside your nose and stays there. The fear has its own scent. It’s not something I could put into words, but even now, I would recognize it. It’s physically hard too. These animals know what’s coming, and believe me, they fight against death with every fibre of their being." B) Work in a vegetable or fruit processing plant. FYI, slaughterhouse workers suffer from PTSD. MMA fighter Mike Bisping worked in a slaughterhouse and couldn't last 2 weeks. So, could you work on the kill floor? If not - why pay others, who might not have any other option - just so we can have our meat. > No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" Well planned simply means choosing plant-based foods that provide the nutrients you need. Same counts for meat eaters. Meat eaters have been advised to supplement D3. And according to the article you linked it says: "Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency. Two subgroups of vegans are at particular risk of B12 deficiency: long-term vegans who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own intake of B12 is low." It says most vegans have no problems. Some who are on a raw fruit / veg diet - yes they lack nutrients and need to supplement. So using that very small group to back up your argument that a plant-based diet is unhealthy is dishonest. Supplementation is easy. Just eat fortified foods or consume B12, which is extremely cheap to buy. > Vegan diet are not healthy. Your statement goes against many nutrition experts. Not only is a plant-based diet healthy, it can also prevent chronic diseases. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics with over 112,000 members is one of the largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. Here is their stance on plant-based diets: "Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment [...] not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer." And you seem to think you know better than 17,000 Physicians who are campaigning for a plant-based diet - https://www.pcrm.org/about-us https://www.pcrm.org/about-us Furthermore - tell this to the various athletes who are thriving on a plant-based diet. See https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/ Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. If you don't support the large scale animal agriculture industry and mostly consume plant-based dishes then that's great! More power to you. But I encourage you to review your stance on animal well-being / rights and not just view them the same as potatoes. Eating animals when it's not required for survival means that they have to be exploited and killed and for what? Tradition and taste? Here is Damian Mander (ex special forces guy) on how to protect animals: https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 Same question as before - if you can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why wouldn't you?

cheese_goddess 4y ago
> FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. Really? According to whom? According to you who came up with it just now, so you can justify moving the goalposts? Haha. Nice try. Nah, actually, not a nice try. Just even more typical vegan dishonesty and trying to win an argument by peddling lies. > It says most vegans have no problems. Nope. It says most vegans aren't clinically deficient. But it says very clearly that most vegans also have low homocysteine levels that put them at risk of heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications. > Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. That's calling the kettle black, coming from a vegan (I mean, assuming you are vegan). My handle, which seems to trigger vegans on HN, is chosen because I'm an amateur cheesemaker and I had thought when I created it that I could contribute to discussions with my empirical knowledge of cheesemaking and some little things I know about dairy science and technology. But it just so happens that any HN thread on anything to do with food is immediately invaded by hungry vegans keen on spreading their ideology. So I keep getting embroiled in these silly little internet arguments with people like you, who care nothing about anything but getting people to agree that eating meat is bad. I don't even eat that much meat. I eat it maybe ... once a week? Every two weeks? It's not like I'm keeping count. I eat beef maybe once every five years, because I don't like it. I grew up on a Mediterrannean diet and I still cook and eat that way. I find the people who say we should eat only meat about as mad as vegans, and about as unhealthy. So no, it's nothing to do with identity. It's just that all that stuff you say is mad. That we should eat only plants is as mad as saying we should eat only meat. It is mad people saying mad stuff on the mad internet. Mad mad mad. > Your statement goes against many nutrition experts It doesn't. What goes against those physicians you list is research that consistently finds that vegans are lacking in basic nutrients, that older vegans have more health issues, and that children fed vegan diets by their parents end up stunted, or dead. I linked to a bunch of those above and further down this sorry excuse for a thread. Why are all those physicians contradicting common research findings? Well, I have no clue. But I know who I'm siding with. The 17,000 "physicians" saying that it's fine to cut out a major food group from your diet? Or the researchers who say that if you do, you're in risk of malnutrition? Guess which one makes more sense.