4 ms·

Having some cheap long-term energy storage option is one way to solve that problem, but another is better power grid interconnection. For instance, Chicago cou

by elihu 4y ago

Having some cheap long-term energy storage option is one way to solve that problem, but another is better power grid interconnection. For instance, Chicago could get solar power from Chile in the winter time to buffer out the seasonal variability. Or if they didn't even want to have to maintain a smaller buffer to deal with day/night cycles, they could get solar power from, say, Algeria and Australia depending on time of day. Power losses would be significant, but probably not all that worse than doing local electricity-to-hydrogen-to-electricity. To quote wikipedia on HVDC lines: > Depending on voltage level and construction details, HVDC transmission losses are quoted at 3.5% per 1,000 km https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-voltage_direct_current An infrastructure project like that would probably be hugely expensive, but so is manufacturing lots of batteries or doing large scale hydrogen production and storage.

ClumsyPilot 4y ago
"they could get solar power from, say, Algeria and Australia depending on time of day." This is basically a proposal to power all of Americas at night using solar deployment in Australia? This is far outside the realm of technical and infrastructural feasability. What about reliability? UK power connection to france has burned down a few months ago and it will take 2 years to fix, and it only moves like 2 GW
- elihu 4y ago
  I would have thought so too, but there was a story awhile back about China working out a deal with Chile to import solar power from Chile via a trans-Pacific cable. Maybe it's just hype and nothing will actually come of it, but someone at least seems to think it's plausible. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export-solar-energy-to-asia-via-15000km-submarine-cable/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export... Probably the way to handle reliability is to keep some of the fossil fuel plants in operational condition just in case. If everything is working properly they don't have to ever be used, but countries aren't under continual threat that their energy supply is going to be cut because someone damaged the cable (accidentally or deliberately).
throw_nbvc1234 4y ago
How would you factor in Geo-political risks to this approach? Seems like we're trading dependency on oil producing countries with a dependency on "sunny and windy" countries. Arguably worse unless the grid is connected like a mesh. Quick google shows that 61% of oil is transported by sea. Non-mesh power-grid interconnection is the equivalent of an oil pipeline with the geo-political downsides associated with it. Though maybe the dependency would at least be bi-directional in some instances.
- elihu 4y ago
  I think the right way to mitigate the risk is to keep many/most of the fossil fuel plants around so that they can be brought online in an emergency (i.e. someone destroys a cable), but otherwise don't use them.
trinovantes 4y ago
The US already struggles to build transmission lines across state lines. Building across nations is basically impossible.
- csee 4y ago
  It's happening, though, so it's not impossible. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-cyprus-greece-electricity-cable-link-eu-money-82505178 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-cyprus...
  - trinovantes 4y ago
    There's a big gap between securing funding and actually completing large infrastructure projects. We have a bunch of cancelled nuclear power plants halfway through construction from NIMBYism, cost overruns, office changes, etc.
- midasuni 4y ago
  Except it happens all the time. Canada exports Gwh to the US every year. Laos is a big exporter too (mainly to Thailand I think), Paraguay to Brazil, and obviously around europe.
  - trinovantes 4y ago
    Sure there are some US-Canada connections but those take years/decades if they ever get approved https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-quebec-hydropower-transmission-line-2021-11-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-q... The other places are more authoritarian and don't need to deal with NIMBYism
guerrilla 4y ago
> Having some cheap long-term energy storage option is one way to solve that problem, but another is better power grid interconnection. Nope, we tried this in Europe and you end up with a free rider problem where nobody but us invested sufficiently in renewables and decided to buy most of their gas from Russia instead, which led to them driving our electricity prices through the roof when the rug got pulled from under them by the war even though we did all the right things. It was clearly a mistake that we deregulated and connected to the European market and now everyone knows this with certainty.

by elihu 4y ago

ClumsyPilot 4y ago

"they could get solar power from, say, Algeria and Australia depending on time of day." This is basically a proposal to power all of Americas at night using solar deployment in Australia? This is far outside the realm of technical and infrastructural feasability. What about reliability? UK power connection to france has burned down a few months ago and it will take 2 years to fix, and it only moves like 2 GW

elihu 4y ago
I would have thought so too, but there was a story awhile back about China working out a deal with Chile to import solar power from Chile via a trans-Pacific cable. Maybe it's just hype and nothing will actually come of it, but someone at least seems to think it's plausible. https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export-solar-energy-to-asia-via-15000km-submarine-cable/ https://www.pv-magazine.com/2021/11/15/chile-wants-to-export... Probably the way to handle reliability is to keep some of the fossil fuel plants in operational condition just in case. If everything is working properly they don't have to ever be used, but countries aren't under continual threat that their energy supply is going to be cut because someone damaged the cable (accidentally or deliberately).

throw_nbvc1234 4y ago

How would you factor in Geo-political risks to this approach? Seems like we're trading dependency on oil producing countries with a dependency on "sunny and windy" countries. Arguably worse unless the grid is connected like a mesh. Quick google shows that 61% of oil is transported by sea. Non-mesh power-grid interconnection is the equivalent of an oil pipeline with the geo-political downsides associated with it. Though maybe the dependency would at least be bi-directional in some instances.

elihu 4y ago
I think the right way to mitigate the risk is to keep many/most of the fossil fuel plants around so that they can be brought online in an emergency (i.e. someone destroys a cable), but otherwise don't use them.

trinovantes 4y ago

The US already struggles to build transmission lines across state lines. Building across nations is basically impossible.

csee 4y ago
It's happening, though, so it's not impossible. https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-cyprus-greece-electricity-cable-link-eu-money-82505178 https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/israel-cyprus...
- trinovantes 4y ago
  There's a big gap between securing funding and actually completing large infrastructure projects. We have a bunch of cancelled nuclear power plants halfway through construction from NIMBYism, cost overruns, office changes, etc.
midasuni 4y ago
Except it happens all the time. Canada exports Gwh to the US every year. Laos is a big exporter too (mainly to Thailand I think), Paraguay to Brazil, and obviously around europe.
- trinovantes 4y ago
  Sure there are some US-Canada connections but those take years/decades if they ever get approved https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-quebec-hydropower-transmission-line-2021-11-03/ https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/maine-voters-reject-q... The other places are more authoritarian and don't need to deal with NIMBYism

guerrilla 4y ago

> Having some cheap long-term energy storage option is one way to solve that problem, but another is better power grid interconnection. Nope, we tried this in Europe and you end up with a free rider problem where nobody but us invested sufficiently in renewables and decided to buy most of their gas from Russia instead, which led to them driving our electricity prices through the roof when the rug got pulled from under them by the war even though we did all the right things. It was clearly a mistake that we deregulated and connected to the European market and now everyone knows this with certainty.