9 ms·

I think they are doing 100M+ per year to run the servers, manage PR / legal / HR issues.

exolymph 4y ago
Sure. I was def exaggerating for effect — there does need to be an org running this project and as that org Wikimedia also does good things. But as with Mozilla, the decision-makers are too distracted by flavor-of-the-week bullshit.
formerly_proven 4y ago
Actually, they're spending less than 3MM per year for hosting. "Other operating expenses" are ~10MM, and everything else on the list has essentially nothing to do with Wikipedia. However, at the current rate it won't take long until they actually do spend 100MM+ on their own salaries. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/1/1e/Wikimedia_Foundation_FY2020-2021_Audit_Report.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/1/1e/Wikim...
- marcinzm 4y ago
  >everything else on the list has essentially nothing to do with Wikipedia I would say that engineer/product/analytics salaries are part of the cost of running and updating a webpage. Then you have HR which is needed to support those employees and Legal which is especially needed given the high risk nature of Wikipedia. Good luck keeping Wikipedia up in a useful manner without those people. edit: Then you need Finance to help handle the costs responsibly. Then you need Fundraising to help raise the money needed to pay for all that. Then you generally want some Marketing/Branding/Communications to help with the whole talking to external humans part.
  - ipaddr 4y ago
    Wikipedia could run with the company the size of craigslist but with all of the additional cash they choose to add layers of bloat without providing similiar value.
  - onphonenow 4y ago
    I'm curious if sites like the pirate bay are "high risk". If so, did it take $100M / year to keep them up with legal and HR teams etc? These claims are often made, but I'm not sure they check out. Plenty of much much more controversial stuff stays online / is available. But supposedly wikipedia will be destroyed without these experts.
    - bobthepanda 4y ago
      The Pirate Bay spent years hopping from legal jurisdiction to legal jurisdiction because of all the suits and enforcement against them. Wikipedia doesn't, and also probably doesn't have any interest in pursuing any sort of expensive jurisdiction-hopping strategy that would also throw all of its employees and work into jeopardy.
    - marcinzm 4y ago
      Pirate Bay is banned in many countries, was raided by the police multiple times, had its founders literally put into jail, had its domains seized, is blocked by Facebook, can't get donations outside of crypto, etc. It's a pretty good example of why you need legal teams for any sort of sustainable effort.
      - jlarocco 4y ago
        But, despite all of that, they were online for years with a budget that was a fraction of $100 million. And they were hosting content that was blatantly illegal in many countries, while Wikipedia really isn't.
        wincy 4y ago
        I mean Piratebay is up right now. At least, if not literally, in spirit. I can get torrent magnet links off a site that looks exactly like the same Piratebay and probably not get a virus.
        nix23 4y ago
        >And they were hosting content that was blatantly illegal in many countries, PirateBay never hosted content, and that's the problem. It's like sue yellow-pages, because they listed a drug-dealer. And what do you mean with illegal?
  - AndyMcConachie 4y ago
    You're applying corporate thinking to this. Wikimedia Foundation doesn't need marketing or branding people, it really doesn't. Communications people I can understand because there will be journalists and others that need to be communicated to. But they don't need a marketing strategy nor do they need marketing collateral.
- nonameiguess 4y ago
  A friend of mine who worked there claimed the bulk of the funding is spent on paying attorneys to defend Wikipedia editors against hostile governments and companies that sue and imprison them for writing unflattering material. Take it with a grain of salt, I guess, given the level of cynicism Hacker News seems to have about Wikimedia Foundation, and you could easily dismiss insiders defending their own organization as shills. I don't really see a way to tell from those financial statements. I'm guessing that would count as program expense and break down between salaries and professional services depending on the relative proportions to which they keep attorneys on staff versus contracting legal defense out to other firms.
  - bawolff 4y ago
    While there are circumstances where WMF does spend money on that, i am pretty sure its not the majority of their expenditures. I had trouble finding info on how much they spend on that, but https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal/Legal_Fees_Assistance_Program https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal/Legal_Fees_Assistance_... suggests the budget is carefully considered.
wmfanon9973 4y ago
They have so much more money than they need, they're giving away donor funds to other organizations: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/IAEIVZX3P4M2UC35L3DDXGSKCYH5WLJB/ https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@list...
- bawolff 4y ago
  Sometimes that can be the right call, if the other organization is doing something that benefits wikimedia. That said the list at, https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Equity_Fund https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Equity_Fund does seem a bit far afield, and personally i find the descriptions of what the money is to be used for too flowery and not concrete enough to be comfortable.

Sure. I was def exaggerating for effect — there does need to be an org running this project and as that org Wikimedia also does good things. But as with Mozilla, the decision-makers are too distracted by flavor-of-the-week bullshit.

formerly_proven 4y ago

Actually, they're spending less than 3MM per year for hosting. "Other operating expenses" are ~10MM, and everything else on the list has essentially nothing to do with Wikipedia. However, at the current rate it won't take long until they actually do spend 100MM+ on their own salaries. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/1/1e/Wikimedia_Foundation_FY2020-2021_Audit_Report.pdf https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/foundation/1/1e/Wikim...

marcinzm 4y ago
>everything else on the list has essentially nothing to do with Wikipedia I would say that engineer/product/analytics salaries are part of the cost of running and updating a webpage. Then you have HR which is needed to support those employees and Legal which is especially needed given the high risk nature of Wikipedia. Good luck keeping Wikipedia up in a useful manner without those people. edit: Then you need Finance to help handle the costs responsibly. Then you need Fundraising to help raise the money needed to pay for all that. Then you generally want some Marketing/Branding/Communications to help with the whole talking to external humans part.
- ipaddr 4y ago
  Wikipedia could run with the company the size of craigslist but with all of the additional cash they choose to add layers of bloat without providing similiar value.
- onphonenow 4y ago
  I'm curious if sites like the pirate bay are "high risk". If so, did it take $100M / year to keep them up with legal and HR teams etc? These claims are often made, but I'm not sure they check out. Plenty of much much more controversial stuff stays online / is available. But supposedly wikipedia will be destroyed without these experts.
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    The Pirate Bay spent years hopping from legal jurisdiction to legal jurisdiction because of all the suits and enforcement against them. Wikipedia doesn't, and also probably doesn't have any interest in pursuing any sort of expensive jurisdiction-hopping strategy that would also throw all of its employees and work into jeopardy.
  - marcinzm 4y ago
    Pirate Bay is banned in many countries, was raided by the police multiple times, had its founders literally put into jail, had its domains seized, is blocked by Facebook, can't get donations outside of crypto, etc. It's a pretty good example of why you need legal teams for any sort of sustainable effort.
    - jlarocco 4y ago
      But, despite all of that, they were online for years with a budget that was a fraction of $100 million. And they were hosting content that was blatantly illegal in many countries, while Wikipedia really isn't.
      - wincy 4y ago
        I mean Piratebay is up right now. At least, if not literally, in spirit. I can get torrent magnet links off a site that looks exactly like the same Piratebay and probably not get a virus.
      - nix23 4y ago
        >And they were hosting content that was blatantly illegal in many countries, PirateBay never hosted content, and that's the problem. It's like sue yellow-pages, because they listed a drug-dealer. And what do you mean with illegal?
- AndyMcConachie 4y ago
  You're applying corporate thinking to this. Wikimedia Foundation doesn't need marketing or branding people, it really doesn't. Communications people I can understand because there will be journalists and others that need to be communicated to. But they don't need a marketing strategy nor do they need marketing collateral.
nonameiguess 4y ago
A friend of mine who worked there claimed the bulk of the funding is spent on paying attorneys to defend Wikipedia editors against hostile governments and companies that sue and imprison them for writing unflattering material. Take it with a grain of salt, I guess, given the level of cynicism Hacker News seems to have about Wikimedia Foundation, and you could easily dismiss insiders defending their own organization as shills. I don't really see a way to tell from those financial statements. I'm guessing that would count as program expense and break down between salaries and professional services depending on the relative proportions to which they keep attorneys on staff versus contracting legal defense out to other firms.
- bawolff 4y ago
  While there are circumstances where WMF does spend money on that, i am pretty sure its not the majority of their expenditures. I had trouble finding info on how much they spend on that, but https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal/Legal_Fees_Assistance_Program https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Legal/Legal_Fees_Assistance_... suggests the budget is carefully considered.

wmfanon9973 4y ago

They have so much more money than they need, they're giving away donor funds to other organizations: https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@lists.wikimedia.org/thread/IAEIVZX3P4M2UC35L3DDXGSKCYH5WLJB/ https://lists.wikimedia.org/hyperkitty/list/wikimedia-l@list...

bawolff 4y ago
Sometimes that can be the right call, if the other organization is doing something that benefits wikimedia. That said the list at, https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Equity_Fund https://meta.m.wikimedia.org/wiki/Knowledge_Equity_Fund does seem a bit far afield, and personally i find the descriptions of what the money is to be used for too flowery and not concrete enough to be comfortable.