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X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. When flying a plane in real life, you don’t do

• zippergz 4y ago
  What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it for learning to fly an airplane (in the sense that they do or will go fly that actual plane IRL)? I'd bet a lot of money that it's less than 5%. They are optimizing for an aspirational but tiny use case.
  • throwaway675309 4y ago
    I feel like the use case of people who want extremely accurate flight modeling and physics + want to control their plane with a QWERTY keyboard is 0%.
    • waynecochran 4y ago
      It would be funny to peak into a cockpit and see a pilot w a QWERTY keyboard on his lap.
      • selectodude 4y ago
        Well, pop into the cockpit of the A380 or the A350 and you'll see that exact situation. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&name=...
        • waynecochran 4y ago
          Sure enough ... there it is ...
    • TimTheTinker 4y ago
      I'm in that "0%", for what it's worth. I want the leisure time my kids and I spend on X-Plane to count towards my/their overall ability to fly a small plane someday (a lifelong dream), but (a) I don't have room for flight gear -- there's barely space for my tiny home office desk, and (b) I can't even justify spending $100 right now for a flight yoke amid other financial obligations (it was a splurge to spend $60 for X-Plane 11). Honestly, I probably would have bought Microsoft's 2020 FS instead if it ran on macOS.
      • Alupis 4y ago
        You don't need to invest in all that kit if you don't want too - I have most of the pretty typical "kit" for a flight simmer, yet I'm often too lazy to haul it all out and set it up (I don't leave it out in between "sessions" since I work from that computer too). So, very often I wind up flying with just my cheap Logitech joystick, but even an XBox controller would be a huge step up from mouse/keyboard only. Having programmable buttons available at your fingertips without having to take your eyes off screen and look for a button really adds to the immersion in my opinion.
      • quest88 4y ago
        My opinion is that people who start in simulator have a hard time adjusting to flying visually (the fundamentals). The sim forces you to look at your instruments which is a bad habit to break. But something constructive: Consider enrolling them in the Young Eagles (https://www.eaa.org/eaa/youth/free-ye-flights https://www.eaa.org/eaa/youth/free-ye-flights) if you haven't already.
        • TimTheTinker 4y ago
          Interesting, I'm not sure I agree. I can take off and land a small plane in a simulator without looking at the instruments at all (except maybe a couple glances at the air speed indicator as I set up for landing), and I've never flown in a real small plane. I always thought visual flying was a crutch and instrument flying is the "real thing" that I know I can't do.
          • 4y ago
    • numpad0 4y ago
      When I play Assetto Corsa I don’t necessarily seeking to simulate operating dipsticks and clearing TPMS warnings. But I don’t want to be able to go through corners without braking either.
  • TylerE 4y ago
    Hardly aspirational. They sell a (much more expensive) version that is FAA-certified for training.
    • masklinn 4y ago
      > They sell a (much more expensive) version that is FAA-certified for training. It's not even that much more expensive, the Pro edition is 750. Though unless you also have real sim hardware it's a completely useless expense as aside from FAA cert validators the features are mostly for multi-projector systems (image warping, edge blending).
  • ziddoap 4y ago
    >What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it for learning to fly an airplane What does it matter? I play city simulation games, and want them to be realistic, because I find the realism fun. Not because I plan on building my own city. Wanting a realistic flight simulator that gives the real sensation of flying does not mean you must then become a pilot.
    • 0xffff2 4y ago
      And unlike any city sim game I'm aware of, X-Plane is actually used as a research tool in real aerospace engineering applications.
  • masklinn 4y ago
    You know that if you want a more arcade oriented flight sim there's flight simulator right? That's not Laminar's goal, and that's not the market they're in. You can see that in the post, it's by the founder of Laminar. It's pages upon pages of gushing over flight modelling.
  • throckmortra 4y ago
    Anecdotally: a lot! I find it very useful for practicing IFR procedures and approaches. You can connect it to an external comm service like Vatsim and a real human will even give you vectors and clearances! (They, too, are using it for realistic practice for a job with air traffic control)
  • colechristensen 4y ago
    xplane is built for a certain use case, and that's real simulation, their real paying customers are using it to actually learn how to fly. people using it for other purposes may be more in number, but focusing the product on their use case would dilute the intended product, and they don't actually pay the pro pricing it's not optimizing for an aspirational use case, the product is for this very niche use case. letting other people use it for fun is just a bonus. If you want a flight sim that maximizes fun, there are other options.
    • ngcc_hk 4y ago
      That is what I hope for. We need more not less options. Hope that niche survive. But would it migrate out so not facing normal consumers I wonder one day.
  • yellowapple 4y ago
    > What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it for learning to fly an airplane (in the sense that they do or will go fly that actual plane IRL)? Based on my anecdotal observations of people I know IRL who use X-Plane? 100%.
• rad_gruchalski 4y ago
  > A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400... Can you recommend anything?
  • hellcow 4y ago
    As a stick, VKB Guardian NXT Evo Premium, and either a 2nd one of those for HOSAS or a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle with Nyogel 767a applied to prevent sticking on the rails. The stick is $200 including a substantial shipping fee from China. The TWCS comes bundled with a (worse) stick at $145, and you can resell the bundled stick for $70 new bringing the throttle cost down to ~$75. Nyogel is ~$13 on Amazon.
    • rad_gruchalski 4y ago
      Thanks, awesome!
    • jamesy0ung 4y ago
      > As a stick, VKB Guardian NXT Evo Premium, and either a 2nd one of those for HOSAS or a Thrustmaster TWCS throttle with Nyogel 767a applied to prevent sticking on the rails. Don't get anything less than a VKB Gladiator. You'll buy a Extreme 3D Pro and then find yourself wanting a VKB later.
      • brewdad 4y ago
        I got my Extreme 3D Pro for $30 a few years ago. I agree that there are so many better options out there but it's been a great way to get my feet wet (spread my wings?) in the world of flight sims which I hadn't really touched for almost 20 years.
• potatolicious 4y ago
  Also worth adding that a reasonably complex modern aircraft cannot be fully controlled by the keyboard alone. We're well past just simple throttle up/down, flaps up/down, gear up/down, etc. How does one interact with the MCDU in an Airbus with the keyboard and joystick? How does one set the A/P altitude and airspeed? Set the radio frequency? What's the keystroke combo to manage the EFB? What keys are bound to "APU bleed on"? The sheer amount of functionality in a modern cockpit defies keyboard control - both because you very rapidly run out of available keybinds, and also that glass cockpits require input modalities that are fundamentally at odds with the keyboard. I'd hazard to say the "3D cockpit + mouse interaction" mode is the only practical way of flying a modern complex aircraft, short of some type of VR/hard cockpit setup.
  • ses1984 4y ago
    What about some kind of "spotlight" search? Imagine you press a keyboard chord to pull up a virtual search bar, then type "APU bleed on" and a virtual hand reaches out and does the action.
    • dieortin 4y ago
      Something like this with voice recognition would be really cool
      • vultour 4y ago
        This exists for quite a while now: https://planecommand.com/ https://planecommand.com/
  • jupp0r 4y ago
    The cockpit interface could be implemented as a command line user interface. Having lots of buttons with text labels is obviously better in emergency situations.
  • colechristensen 4y ago
    You absolutely could have a REPL+extras kind of keyboard interface for an aircraft (it would be an interesting project!) but it might not be the best decision for an actual aircraft (actually testing this, how a pilot trained to be an expert in this kind of control would faire in stressful situations would also be an interesting project) It would probably be a bad idea for a real world aircraft, but designing and testing it would be fun!
• lmm 4y ago
  > X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. > When flying a plane in real life, you don’t do it with a keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that unrealistic use-case. How much difference does that make to the sensation though? As long as it's a motion that's simple enough to become muscle memory (which having to look around with a mouse and click on the right thing onscreen isn't), I don't think the mechanics of how you're physically doing the input makes any difference.
  • azalemeth 4y ago
    It makes a big difference. The FAA talk about "flow patterns" for correct activities in certain phases of flight; training to recover from some non-normal situations is quite literally learning a specific muscle memory, as well as decision making (albeit quite simple decision making). Something that is quite hard to convey is how you actually _do_ get into an "OODA loop" in an aircraft (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OODA_loop) – observe, "orient", decide and act. For example, if flying VFR a lot of the time is spent looking out the window and actively checking that there is "nothing there". You look at the instruments, but you don't stare at them. A large part of flight training is pattern recognition, muscle memory, and fine motor skills. I spent a lot of time gliding while writing up my doctoral thesis (mostly as it's hard to panic about not working when you're too busy not dying) and found it very helpful for other situations in everyday life. Part of that is knowing, exactly, without looking, where everything is. For that reason, aircraft have physically differently shaped handles for the important knobs so that they are unlikely to be confused. On the glider I have most hours in, the lever on the left that is blue, with a moulded grip is the speed brake. The tow / winch release lever is a yellow ball. In many prop aircraft, the throttle, mixture and prop pitch knobs are again given different shapes (round, star and "undulating" respectively). Knowing where to move your hands to is actually a really important skill and the keen-beans that X-plane sells to likely have set-ups where not only are these things in roughly the right place, but the distance between them and the chair is measured. Why? Well, if you're learning to fly an aircraft that burns ~$150 per hour (or more), and you can practice a ton of circuits in X-plane, it is a hell of a lot cheaper to try to get good at it outside of the aircraft first.
  • 4y ago
• antod 4y ago
  > X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. That and a few other replies made me wonder philosophically, maybe we should distinguish between a flight sim and pilot sim? An app could be both at once of course, but more a reflection on which bits get abstracted away. eg fiddling with radios and realistic cockpit buttons and dealing with ATC might simulate being a pilot, but it's less about the sensation of actually flying and looking out at the world from above.
  • MaxBarraclough 4y ago
    I wouldn't take hellcow's comment too literally, X-Plane is about realism, which isn't the same thing as the sensation of flying. A non-pilot might find that MSFS gives a better sensation of flying because of its superior graphics, and might not care (or notice) its far inferior flight modelling. > maybe we should distinguish between a flight sim and pilot sim? I wouldn't use pilot sim, it gives the impression of a 'career mode' beyond the scope of directly operating the aircraft. The terms I've encountered are flying game and flight simulator. This is almost, but not quite, reflected in the Wikipedia article names. The X-Plane article is under X-Plane (simulator), whereas MSFS is under Microsoft Flight Simulator (2020 video game).
• clumsysmurf 4y ago
  I'm glad I saw this thread, I was about to buy & try X-Plane assuming I could just use the keyboard. Do you have any good pointers on this sub $400 setup, articles, etc ?
  • kqr 4y ago
    You can absolutely use keyboard and mouse. Some things will be harder[1] but you can still learn a lot of flying with just mouse and keyboard: landing, navigation, energy management, radio, emergency procedures, checklists, flight planning, etc. [1]: Some examples: - you'll have to smash the throttle up key very quickly to throttle up for a late go-around, - you won't have meaningful rudder controls so you'll have to rely on auto-rudder, and - trim is a bit more difficult to get a sense for without sensing the deflection of your pitch control.