7 ms·

This is nonsense. C diff in hospital settings is not a reason to close the lid when you flush in your home. The lid on a hospital toilet is designed to close a

by ouid 4y ago

This is nonsense. C diff in hospital settings is not a reason to close the lid when you flush in your home. The lid on a hospital toilet is designed to close a lot more than the lid on your home toilet. The amount that your home toilet lid can "reduce germs" is less than a factor of 2. There are basically no pathogens whose infectious innoculum is so close to dose of the average toilet plume that a factor of 2 makes any difference at all. Moreover, those are your germs. you are colonized with them already.

Hnrobert42 4y ago
But what’s the harm in closing it?
- ouid 4y ago
  It takes 2 seconds. Why spend 2 seconds doing something useless?
  - mulmen 4y ago
    As established, it is not useless.
    - ouid 4y ago
      That is not, in fact, established. And the question was "what's the harm?"
      - deleted 4y ago
        [deleted]
      - taeric 4y ago
        https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31828469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31828469 indicates that there was a "mythbusters" that looked at whether germs would reach things like tooth brushes in the bathroom. So... maybe it is more plausible than you seem to be allowing? (I'm planning on watching that full episode later. Seems to be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pFww_EaLiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pFww_EaLiY.) Edit: That must be the wrong episode. Will keep looking for it.
- whizzter 4y ago
  Depending on the toilet (and esp with "water saving toilets"), floating remains left behind for the next person to discover? The problem is that many toilets seems to be designed so that the flowing water is supposed to create a vacuum pull effect in the piping dragging with it water and the heavier materials from a toilet. However with a closed lid the lower air pressure within the bowl is going to create a suction effect in the other direction thus lowering the flushing effect, leaving heavier brown materials still within the toilet ready for the next customer to discover.
  - dtgriscom 4y ago
    I've never seen a toilet lid that seals well enough to affect the flushing action.
    - whizzter 4y ago
      Like I mentioned, I do suspect that "modern" low-water toilets are half the blame here (less water->less suction). Also cheap "soft-plastic" lids seem pretty sealing compared to older/more expensive hard lids that were usually load bearing with spacers holding them up slightly (probably to let in air?). Actually tested this a bit after open/close lid arguments with my ex and this does happen, hospital toilets do usually seem sturdier than those you find in homes here though.
      - taeric 4y ago
        For what its worth, look into actual modern toilets. The first batch of low water use ones were somewhat lacking. Modern ones are typically better than the old high water use of a decade ago. Is kind of like LED lights. First batches were garbage. Nowadays, they are better in basically every way compared to what they replaced.
mulmen 4y ago
> a factor of 2 So, half? Is there some benefit to blasting literal shit into the air I am missing?
- ouid 4y ago
  Yes, you save, according to OP, 2 seconds, 4, since you then have to open the lid every time. Since it has no impact on your health, you should prefer to save the time. There is literal shit everywhere all the time. There's shit inside of you, right now. The bacteria that comprise that shit are basically the same as the bacteria on your skin. Performing little rituals to reduce the amount of perceived shit in your life is a symptom of, and perhaps even a pathway to, crippling neurosis.
  - mulmen 4y ago
    > crippling neurosis. Well that escalated quickly. You are ignoring the actual benefit of halving exposure with a couple of seconds of effort. Worrying about that kind of time is itself crippling neurosis. I reject your analysis.
    - alar44 4y ago
      Halving a 0.00001% chance that you get some crazy infection from flushing the toilet is definitely neurotic. You're better off saving the 2 seconds and not thinking about it. "But it's still half!" Half of nothing is nothing.
    - doliveira 4y ago
      Yeah, at first scan I thought it was going to be some ironic comment. Which it was, just not intentionally
    - ouid 4y ago
      I am not ignoring that effect. I am dismissing it with two arguments. The first is that this extremely unlikely to ever be your largest exposure to a pathogen. The reason that it is important in a hospital is because they essentially autoclave these room to try to eradicate C Diff. The second reason is that even if it is your largest exposure to that pathogen, and that is enough to make you ill, it is almost certain that a dose of half of that size will also be sufficient to make you ill. It is notable that there are no studies to the effect of "do people who close their toilet lids at home get sick less often". The scientific journalism of this "effect" is always about the quantity of germs, or conflating home and hospital settings, where again, the objective is literally zero C diff. It riles up the germophobes.
seszett 4y ago
> There are basically no pathogens whose infectious innoculum is so close to dose of the average toilet plume that a factor of 2 makes any difference at all. Moreover, those are your germs. you are colonized with them already. That's only true if you're living alone. If someone else is living with you, then it's always good to try and avoid sharing germs, especially when they're sick.
- rimunroe 4y ago
  > If someone else is living with you, then it's always good to try and avoid sharing germs I feel like this is a ridiculous enough question that I don't expect a source-though if you do have one or know how this sort of thing would be studied I'd love to hear it--but is that always true? I certainly try to reduce my exposure when someone's noticeably sick, but I wouldn't be surprised if some degree of exposure turned out to be beneficial. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be harmful. I would be least surprised to find out that doing this simply doesn't make a measurable difference in most home environments.
  - seszett 4y ago
    When your loved one is emptying from both sides every other hour, you generally just want to avoid it for yourself.
    - rimunroe 4y ago
      Of course, but you said that it's always a good idea to avoid sharing germs. I'm specifically asking about the common scenario where no one is noticeably sick
      - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
        Using UV light to see the plume of a flush https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tg7i66GGMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tg7i66GGMI
slowmovintarget 4y ago
What of droplet spread to exposed surfaces in the bathroom like... a toothbrush drying on the rack beside the sink? Granted, the way to reduce that possibility is to keep the toothbrush in a cabinet.
_benedict 4y ago
If you read the article: > 12-fold greater counts than when lidded How did you source your “factor of 2” assertion?
- ouid 4y ago
  The same article. Look at the data. for aerosols one hand width above the surface of the toilet, the numbers are a factor of two different lidded vs unlidded. The 12 times claim is only for samples collected at "seat height".
TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
> when you flush in your home I did not say "in my home". Everywhere.
mise_en_place 4y ago
I tend to agree, it also adds another pain in the ass step and is not as efficient. I want to finish my business (no pun intended) as quickly as possible and move on to the next thing, not have to do pointless additional steps that have specious benefits at best. Also I highly recommend a bidet, it has made cleaning very fast and efficient and more hygienic.
- cycomanic 4y ago
  > I tend to agree, it also adds another pain in the ass step I am not sure I want to know what your doing with the toilet lid, but it certainly is not what the article is talking about. SCNR ;)
  - mise_en_place 4y ago
    Toilet seat tends to be hard plastic material. I have never found a toilet that was pleasant to sit on for more than a few minutes. There is padding but that doesn't help too much. Squat toilet is ideal but requires holding squat position for many minutes.
- krylon 4y ago
  > another pain in the ass step ... > finish my business (no pun intended) So that first pun was intended, I presume? Well done! I wonder why those fancy high-tech Japanese toilets haven't caught on over here ("here" == Germany, but I suspect the situation is very similar in most places that aren't Japan). From what I heard they are like a toilet with a builtin bidet.
  - ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
    Washlets are the shit. Highly recommended.

by ouid 4y ago

Hnrobert42 4y ago

But what’s the harm in closing it?

ouid 4y ago
It takes 2 seconds. Why spend 2 seconds doing something useless?
- mulmen 4y ago
  As established, it is not useless.
  - ouid 4y ago
    That is not, in fact, established. And the question was "what's the harm?"
    - deleted 4y ago
      [deleted]
    - taeric 4y ago
      https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31828469 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31828469 indicates that there was a "mythbusters" that looked at whether germs would reach things like tooth brushes in the bathroom. So... maybe it is more plausible than you seem to be allowing? (I'm planning on watching that full episode later. Seems to be https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pFww_EaLiY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1pFww_EaLiY.) Edit: That must be the wrong episode. Will keep looking for it.
whizzter 4y ago
Depending on the toilet (and esp with "water saving toilets"), floating remains left behind for the next person to discover? The problem is that many toilets seems to be designed so that the flowing water is supposed to create a vacuum pull effect in the piping dragging with it water and the heavier materials from a toilet. However with a closed lid the lower air pressure within the bowl is going to create a suction effect in the other direction thus lowering the flushing effect, leaving heavier brown materials still within the toilet ready for the next customer to discover.
- dtgriscom 4y ago
  I've never seen a toilet lid that seals well enough to affect the flushing action.
  - whizzter 4y ago
    Like I mentioned, I do suspect that "modern" low-water toilets are half the blame here (less water->less suction). Also cheap "soft-plastic" lids seem pretty sealing compared to older/more expensive hard lids that were usually load bearing with spacers holding them up slightly (probably to let in air?). Actually tested this a bit after open/close lid arguments with my ex and this does happen, hospital toilets do usually seem sturdier than those you find in homes here though.
    - taeric 4y ago
      For what its worth, look into actual modern toilets. The first batch of low water use ones were somewhat lacking. Modern ones are typically better than the old high water use of a decade ago. Is kind of like LED lights. First batches were garbage. Nowadays, they are better in basically every way compared to what they replaced.

mulmen 4y ago

> a factor of 2 So, half? Is there some benefit to blasting literal shit into the air I am missing?

ouid 4y ago
Yes, you save, according to OP, 2 seconds, 4, since you then have to open the lid every time. Since it has no impact on your health, you should prefer to save the time. There is literal shit everywhere all the time. There's shit inside of you, right now. The bacteria that comprise that shit are basically the same as the bacteria on your skin. Performing little rituals to reduce the amount of perceived shit in your life is a symptom of, and perhaps even a pathway to, crippling neurosis.
- mulmen 4y ago
  > crippling neurosis. Well that escalated quickly. You are ignoring the actual benefit of halving exposure with a couple of seconds of effort. Worrying about that kind of time is itself crippling neurosis. I reject your analysis.
  - alar44 4y ago
    Halving a 0.00001% chance that you get some crazy infection from flushing the toilet is definitely neurotic. You're better off saving the 2 seconds and not thinking about it. "But it's still half!" Half of nothing is nothing.
  - doliveira 4y ago
    Yeah, at first scan I thought it was going to be some ironic comment. Which it was, just not intentionally
  - ouid 4y ago
    I am not ignoring that effect. I am dismissing it with two arguments. The first is that this extremely unlikely to ever be your largest exposure to a pathogen. The reason that it is important in a hospital is because they essentially autoclave these room to try to eradicate C Diff. The second reason is that even if it is your largest exposure to that pathogen, and that is enough to make you ill, it is almost certain that a dose of half of that size will also be sufficient to make you ill. It is notable that there are no studies to the effect of "do people who close their toilet lids at home get sick less often". The scientific journalism of this "effect" is always about the quantity of germs, or conflating home and hospital settings, where again, the objective is literally zero C diff. It riles up the germophobes.

seszett 4y ago

> There are basically no pathogens whose infectious innoculum is so close to dose of the average toilet plume that a factor of 2 makes any difference at all. Moreover, those are your germs. you are colonized with them already. That's only true if you're living alone. If someone else is living with you, then it's always good to try and avoid sharing germs, especially when they're sick.

rimunroe 4y ago
> If someone else is living with you, then it's always good to try and avoid sharing germs I feel like this is a ridiculous enough question that I don't expect a source-though if you do have one or know how this sort of thing would be studied I'd love to hear it--but is that always true? I certainly try to reduce my exposure when someone's noticeably sick, but I wouldn't be surprised if some degree of exposure turned out to be beneficial. I also wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be harmful. I would be least surprised to find out that doing this simply doesn't make a measurable difference in most home environments.
- seszett 4y ago
  When your loved one is emptying from both sides every other hour, you generally just want to avoid it for yourself.
  - rimunroe 4y ago
    Of course, but you said that it's always a good idea to avoid sharing germs. I'm specifically asking about the common scenario where no one is noticeably sick
    - TedDoesntTalk 4y ago
      Using UV light to see the plume of a flush https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tg7i66GGMI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Tg7i66GGMI

slowmovintarget 4y ago

What of droplet spread to exposed surfaces in the bathroom like... a toothbrush drying on the rack beside the sink? Granted, the way to reduce that possibility is to keep the toothbrush in a cabinet.

_benedict 4y ago

If you read the article: > 12-fold greater counts than when lidded How did you source your “factor of 2” assertion?

ouid 4y ago
The same article. Look at the data. for aerosols one hand width above the surface of the toilet, the numbers are a factor of two different lidded vs unlidded. The 12 times claim is only for samples collected at "seat height".

TedDoesntTalk 4y ago

> when you flush in your home I did not say "in my home". Everywhere.

mise_en_place 4y ago

I tend to agree, it also adds another pain in the ass step and is not as efficient. I want to finish my business (no pun intended) as quickly as possible and move on to the next thing, not have to do pointless additional steps that have specious benefits at best. Also I highly recommend a bidet, it has made cleaning very fast and efficient and more hygienic.

cycomanic 4y ago
> I tend to agree, it also adds another pain in the ass step I am not sure I want to know what your doing with the toilet lid, but it certainly is not what the article is talking about. SCNR ;)
- mise_en_place 4y ago
  Toilet seat tends to be hard plastic material. I have never found a toilet that was pleasant to sit on for more than a few minutes. There is padding but that doesn't help too much. Squat toilet is ideal but requires holding squat position for many minutes.
krylon 4y ago
> another pain in the ass step ... > finish my business (no pun intended) So that first pun was intended, I presume? Well done! I wonder why those fancy high-tech Japanese toilets haven't caught on over here ("here" == Germany, but I suspect the situation is very similar in most places that aren't Japan). From what I heard they are like a toilet with a builtin bidet.
- ThePowerOfFuet 4y ago
  Washlets are the shit. Highly recommended.