7 ms·

I've always enjoyed xplane but one thing I find annoying is that it seems like sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d cockpits) at the expen

I've always enjoyed xplane but one thing I find annoying is that it seems like sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and practical to fly from a normal computer setup. The full sim setup people have built with yokes, pedals, and other controls are absolutely astonishing and it's so cool that xplane supports that. But most of us don't and can't have that kind of thing, at most a joystick and often just a keyboard and mouse. Over the years it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with that kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look cool over making it behave realistically (I don't consider having to click a graphic of a physical switch on the screen with my mouse more realistic than hitting a key on my keyboard). You can fix some of it with key mappings, but it's clear that this experience is not the priority. That said, I totally agree with the others that this is an outstanding product and a bargain at its price. My griping comes from a place of love as someone who has been using xplane for over 10 years.

eterm 4y ago
This was always the x-plane way. I had x-plane 5 and had tons of fun flying it and because of that bought x-plane 6 and it just wasn't as fun to fly because they put so much effort into getting the flight models "more accurate" which actually meant the sim was just less fun to fly for many of the more odd planes available like the SR-71.
- zippergz 4y ago
  Yeah, I mean, I think the "flight models are too accurate to be fun" thing is true in some cases, but it's a different issue than I'm complaining about. For me, I'd rather have super accurate flight models and really great controls via keyboard and mouse, with graphics that look like Battlezone (1980s arcade game for the youngsters) than incredibly detailed landscapes and cockpits that might be almost photorealistic but give almost no thought to what it's like to use on a normal computer without a full dedicated setup.
  - Alupis 4y ago
    I think this might be because X-Plane isn't the type of "game" many folks are looking for in a flight sim. X-Plane prioritizes correctness and details above all else - whereas something like Microsoft Flight Simulator prioritizes eye candy and fun. Want to fly to Area 51, attempt to land a 747 on an aircraft carrier, fly above the pyramids of Egypt, fly between buildings and perform aerobatics - choose MS Flight Simulator. Want to practice patterns, procedures, participate in a live online ATC simulated community, familiarize yourself with new territory or airstrips, learn a new aircraft - choose X-Plane. That's not to say you can't use X-Plane for fun, it just means doing things like aerobatics might not come easy due to the focus on realism. Both are excellent simulators in their own right - just need to find the one you prefer. I personally fly X-Plane 11, Microsoft Flight Simulator and Prepar3D (based off older MS Flight Simulator codebase). Each has pros and cons.
- prmoustache 4y ago
  That is the reason GranTurismo was soo popular. It was quite a shitty simulation but visually really good and accessible to everyone. However hardcore simracer were just glad other sims like Assetto Corsa exist. Looks to me like MSFS is the way to go for someone who wants planes with the same "granturismo" approach.
hellcow 4y ago
X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. When flying a plane in real life, you don’t do it with a keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that unrealistic use-case. A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400 which gets you much closer to the real-world experience that X-Plane is trying to create.
- zippergz 4y ago
  What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it for learning to fly an airplane (in the sense that they do or will go fly that actual plane IRL)? I'd bet a lot of money that it's less than 5%. They are optimizing for an aspirational but tiny use case.
  - throwaway675309 4y ago
    I feel like the use case of people who want extremely accurate flight modeling and physics + want to control their plane with a QWERTY keyboard is 0%.
    - waynecochran 4y ago
      It would be funny to peak into a cockpit and see a pilot w a QWERTY keyboard on his lap.
      - selectodude 4y ago
        Well, pop into the cockpit of the A380 or the A350 and you'll see that exact situation. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&name=...
        waynecochran 4y ago
        Sure enough ... there it is ...
anyfoo 4y ago
My setup is usually one very good joystick (VKB Gladiator II) and sometimes an additional throttle control. But the VKB joystick has a little throttle slider on the joystick itself, and if I don't want to make space on my desk that's usually enough. As long as you have a good joystick and a keyboard, you can often reasonably fly pretty much everything from GA to Airliners. Though more out of curiosity I recently got a TrackIR, which tracks your head (usually using reflective surfaces that you can put on a baseball cap) and adjusts the viewing angle, and I must say that is an absolute game changer. No longer having to either guess what's left, right, or even behind the screen, or awkwardly using camera controls is so much easier. And I was surprised how natural it feels: The head tracking has to heavily amplify your head motion, since you still want to keep your eyes on the screen after all, and to my own astonishment there was practically zero time for my brain to adjust. I even added some nonlinear curves and that works well, too.
- cheschire 4y ago
  its so crazy to me how many times i've heard people praise the TrackIR, and I have one as well that really improved ETS2, but the latest version is advertised as a Windows Vista compatible product on Amazon. It works in all the later versions of Windows, but my point is how OLD it is. Has nobody figured out a way to improve on it yet? All the gopro headband hacks, monitor bezels shrinking over the years, wireless tech including bluetooth LE... one would think that there would be room in this world for a TrackIR 6. The VR craze is past the peak thankfully, but man that would've been the opportune moment to sell a product that doesn't have all the weaknesses of early Oculus and Sony VR headsets.
  - selectodude 4y ago
    A lot of people I know (myself included) use our iPhones as the TrackIR hardware. Anything with FaceID works great.
    - avereveard 4y ago
      The latest opentrack neural net tracker is great too we're using it in dcs with mouse for clickables and it's a super pleasant experience
MaxBarraclough 4y ago
> sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and practical to fly from a normal computer setup They don't really emphasize visuals. Even with X-Plane 12, the graphics will still be far behind those of Microsoft Flight Simulator. Thankfully they will be overhauling the graphics for trees, which currently look like something from the 90's. [0] > it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with that kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look cool over making it behave realistically As others have said, you might be better served by Microsoft Flight Simulator. It prioritises approachability far more than X-Plane does, and isn't going for the professional/approved flight simulation market. > (I don't consider having to click a graphic of a physical switch on the screen with my mouse more realistic than hitting a key on my keyboard). You can fix some of it with key mappings, but it's clear that this experience is not the priority. I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the button to a key, provided you have enough keys on your keyboard that aren't already bound. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLqU-NJhbE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLqU-NJhbE
- Alupis 4y ago
  > I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the button to a key, provided you have enough keys on your keyboard that aren't already bound. Everything can be bound to a key or keys. The reason we often click/flip switches with the mouse in a virtual cockpit is partly the fun, but also it familiarizes you with the location of things in different cockpits. It also increases work load, especially during critical phases of flight such as landing/take off, making a slightly more realistic feeling simulation. Just pressing a button on the keyboard doesn't achieve that, even if it results in the same thing happening to the model.
jillesvangurp 4y ago
They've always prioritized fidelity of the actual simulation. It's as realistic as they can get it. With the upcoming version, they've done a lot of work to improve this. The article is a good example of this; and typical of the style of Austin Meyer (founder of Laminar Research). This fidelity is what makes x-plane hard to fly (and a lot of fun) because a lot of interesting planes are fundamentally hard to fly in the real world as well; unless you know what you are doing and have good controls. However, a simple twisting joystick goes a long way. I have an ancient Microsoft one (like 15 years) and it has served me well over the years. You just have to calibrate it correctly. Most x-plane developers have pretty modest setups too. You just need to set things up right and then fly the numbers (correct v-speeds). And select the right planes. I always enjoy flying the simpler planes. What's interesting is that most simple joysticks are actually already more expensive than the sim. You get some amazing value for not a lot of money. Fs-elite has been running a series of interviews with x-plane developers about v12 the last few weeks. Well worth checking out if you are interested in x-plane: https://www.youtube.com/c/FSElite/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/FSElite/videos I'm particularly looking forward to the improved weather and clouds. Also, built in ATC looks like it should be more usable.
- bouchard 4y ago
  > They've always prioritized fidelity of the actual simulation. It's as realistic as they can get it. Yeah, not really. The models are tuned until it feels like the actual aircraft which is good, however it wasn't until just two years ago [0] that Austin Mayer re-discovered some of the most basic models used for aircraft performance (fixed- and rotary-wing). He's got a good instinctive way of thinking about it that's for sure, but he seems to have skipped some introductory material during his degree. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WROEk_Jv33w https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WROEk_Jv33w

eterm 4y ago

This was always the x-plane way. I had x-plane 5 and had tons of fun flying it and because of that bought x-plane 6 and it just wasn't as fun to fly because they put so much effort into getting the flight models "more accurate" which actually meant the sim was just less fun to fly for many of the more odd planes available like the SR-71.

zippergz 4y ago
Yeah, I mean, I think the "flight models are too accurate to be fun" thing is true in some cases, but it's a different issue than I'm complaining about. For me, I'd rather have super accurate flight models and really great controls via keyboard and mouse, with graphics that look like Battlezone (1980s arcade game for the youngsters) than incredibly detailed landscapes and cockpits that might be almost photorealistic but give almost no thought to what it's like to use on a normal computer without a full dedicated setup.
- Alupis 4y ago
  I think this might be because X-Plane isn't the type of "game" many folks are looking for in a flight sim. X-Plane prioritizes correctness and details above all else - whereas something like Microsoft Flight Simulator prioritizes eye candy and fun. Want to fly to Area 51, attempt to land a 747 on an aircraft carrier, fly above the pyramids of Egypt, fly between buildings and perform aerobatics - choose MS Flight Simulator. Want to practice patterns, procedures, participate in a live online ATC simulated community, familiarize yourself with new territory or airstrips, learn a new aircraft - choose X-Plane. That's not to say you can't use X-Plane for fun, it just means doing things like aerobatics might not come easy due to the focus on realism. Both are excellent simulators in their own right - just need to find the one you prefer. I personally fly X-Plane 11, Microsoft Flight Simulator and Prepar3D (based off older MS Flight Simulator codebase). Each has pros and cons.
prmoustache 4y ago
That is the reason GranTurismo was soo popular. It was quite a shitty simulation but visually really good and accessible to everyone. However hardcore simracer were just glad other sims like Assetto Corsa exist. Looks to me like MSFS is the way to go for someone who wants planes with the same "granturismo" approach.

hellcow 4y ago

X-Plane is a flight simulator. Its purpose first and foremost seems to be to create a real sensation of flying. When flying a plane in real life, you don’t do it with a keyboard. It seems odd to build a simulator prioritizing that unrealistic use-case. A quality HOTAS setup can be had for under $400 which gets you much closer to the real-world experience that X-Plane is trying to create.

zippergz 4y ago
What percentage of x-plane users do you think ACTUALLY use it for learning to fly an airplane (in the sense that they do or will go fly that actual plane IRL)? I'd bet a lot of money that it's less than 5%. They are optimizing for an aspirational but tiny use case.
- throwaway675309 4y ago
  I feel like the use case of people who want extremely accurate flight modeling and physics + want to control their plane with a QWERTY keyboard is 0%.
  - waynecochran 4y ago
    It would be funny to peak into a cockpit and see a pilot w a QWERTY keyboard on his lap.
    - selectodude 4y ago
      Well, pop into the cockpit of the A380 or the A350 and you'll see that exact situation. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DUdKMKeXUAAjrFO?format=jpg&name=...
      - waynecochran 4y ago
        Sure enough ... there it is ...

anyfoo 4y ago

My setup is usually one very good joystick (VKB Gladiator II) and sometimes an additional throttle control. But the VKB joystick has a little throttle slider on the joystick itself, and if I don't want to make space on my desk that's usually enough. As long as you have a good joystick and a keyboard, you can often reasonably fly pretty much everything from GA to Airliners. Though more out of curiosity I recently got a TrackIR, which tracks your head (usually using reflective surfaces that you can put on a baseball cap) and adjusts the viewing angle, and I must say that is an absolute game changer. No longer having to either guess what's left, right, or even behind the screen, or awkwardly using camera controls is so much easier. And I was surprised how natural it feels: The head tracking has to heavily amplify your head motion, since you still want to keep your eyes on the screen after all, and to my own astonishment there was practically zero time for my brain to adjust. I even added some nonlinear curves and that works well, too.

cheschire 4y ago
its so crazy to me how many times i've heard people praise the TrackIR, and I have one as well that really improved ETS2, but the latest version is advertised as a Windows Vista compatible product on Amazon. It works in all the later versions of Windows, but my point is how OLD it is. Has nobody figured out a way to improve on it yet? All the gopro headband hacks, monitor bezels shrinking over the years, wireless tech including bluetooth LE... one would think that there would be room in this world for a TrackIR 6. The VR craze is past the peak thankfully, but man that would've been the opportune moment to sell a product that doesn't have all the weaknesses of early Oculus and Sony VR headsets.
- selectodude 4y ago
  A lot of people I know (myself included) use our iPhones as the TrackIR hardware. Anything with FaceID works great.
  - avereveard 4y ago
    The latest opentrack neural net tracker is great too we're using it in dcs with mouse for clickables and it's a super pleasant experience

MaxBarraclough 4y ago

> sometimes they emphasize visuals and cool effects (like 3d cockpits) at the expense of making the planes fun and practical to fly from a normal computer setup They don't really emphasize visuals. Even with X-Plane 12, the graphics will still be far behind those of Microsoft Flight Simulator. Thankfully they will be overhauling the graphics for trees, which currently look like something from the 90's. [0] > it has gotten less and less enjoyable to fly xplane with that kind of a setup because of the emphasis on making it look cool over making it behave realistically As others have said, you might be better served by Microsoft Flight Simulator. It prioritises approachability far more than X-Plane does, and isn't going for the professional/approved flight simulation market. > (I don't consider having to click a graphic of a physical switch on the screen with my mouse more realistic than hitting a key on my keyboard). You can fix some of it with key mappings, but it's clear that this experience is not the priority. I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the button to a key, provided you have enough keys on your keyboard that aren't already bound. [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLqU-NJhbE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxLqU-NJhbE

Alupis 4y ago
> I'd be very surprised if it weren't possible to map the button to a key, provided you have enough keys on your keyboard that aren't already bound. Everything can be bound to a key or keys. The reason we often click/flip switches with the mouse in a virtual cockpit is partly the fun, but also it familiarizes you with the location of things in different cockpits. It also increases work load, especially during critical phases of flight such as landing/take off, making a slightly more realistic feeling simulation. Just pressing a button on the keyboard doesn't achieve that, even if it results in the same thing happening to the model.

jillesvangurp 4y ago

They've always prioritized fidelity of the actual simulation. It's as realistic as they can get it. With the upcoming version, they've done a lot of work to improve this. The article is a good example of this; and typical of the style of Austin Meyer (founder of Laminar Research). This fidelity is what makes x-plane hard to fly (and a lot of fun) because a lot of interesting planes are fundamentally hard to fly in the real world as well; unless you know what you are doing and have good controls. However, a simple twisting joystick goes a long way. I have an ancient Microsoft one (like 15 years) and it has served me well over the years. You just have to calibrate it correctly. Most x-plane developers have pretty modest setups too. You just need to set things up right and then fly the numbers (correct v-speeds). And select the right planes. I always enjoy flying the simpler planes. What's interesting is that most simple joysticks are actually already more expensive than the sim. You get some amazing value for not a lot of money. Fs-elite has been running a series of interviews with x-plane developers about v12 the last few weeks. Well worth checking out if you are interested in x-plane: https://www.youtube.com/c/FSElite/videos https://www.youtube.com/c/FSElite/videos I'm particularly looking forward to the improved weather and clouds. Also, built in ATC looks like it should be more usable.

bouchard 4y ago
> They've always prioritized fidelity of the actual simulation. It's as realistic as they can get it. Yeah, not really. The models are tuned until it feels like the actual aircraft which is good, however it wasn't until just two years ago [0] that Austin Mayer re-discovered some of the most basic models used for aircraft performance (fixed- and rotary-wing). He's got a good instinctive way of thinking about it that's for sure, but he seems to have skipped some introductory material during his degree. [0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WROEk_Jv33w https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WROEk_Jv33w