7 ms·

This article doesn't address the 1998 discovery that the "lost" art was the presence of vanadium in the ores that real damascus blades were made from. The vana

This article doesn't address the 1998 discovery that the "lost" art was the presence of vanadium in the ores that real damascus blades were made from. The vanadium gave the steel its strength from the 13th to 17th centuries or something like that. It was present in iron ore mined in a particular region, and those mines eventually ran out, after which the "recipes" for damascus steel weren't lost, they simply stopped working and no one knew why. They had no way to tell the difference between iron ore from one place and ore from another. This is explained in the 1998 Verhoeven, Pendray, and Dauksch (VPD) article]1] that the reddit post cites without touching on this crucial aspect. Or anyway, I thought that VPD's explanation was now generally accepted. This isn't anywhere near my field though. [1] Verhoeven, John D. et al. “The key role of impurities in ancient damascus steel blades.” JOM 50 (1998): 58-64.

throwaway81523 4y ago
Ok, I found a link to the VPD article: https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.ht...
michaelscott 4y ago
I didn't know this, that's really interesting. I, like I think many others, was under the impression that Damascus was a lost technique. I'm under the further impression though that our modern alloys have long since passed the standard of these ancient Damascus steels. Is that true?
- hef19898 4y ago
  No historical steel beat modern day steel alloys, not when it comes to quality nor to predictablility. You heat treat a certain SAE spec stell in a certain way and you get tye same result, within accepted and specified tolerances, regardless if batch. No such thing in the past. Also, modern day steel is just dirt cheap, even the higher spec monosteels.
  - _0w8t 4y ago
    Some modern steel alloys from Sweden with extreme strength costs more than silver.
    - hef19898 4y ago
      It depends on production quantities, for sure. And don't get me started with aerospace grade heat treated high tensile stuff. The high spec mass produced stuff is still extremely cheap, if you can get it in small volumes. And whether or not those more esoteric alloys actually improve blade quality, well, I'm not sure. But the again at the higher end we talk more art work than tool, and art os following its own rules.
hef19898 4y ago
I think one has to seperate the steel alloy, which covered, and the forging techniques used. The former ran out, at which point steel quality decreased. Lets call that steel from Damascus. And there is what is now commonly called Damast steel, basically folded and twisted steel of dofferent properties. That technique is as old as blacksmithing because it was, more or less, the only way to get rid of impurities. The Japanese developed this technique to the extreme by not just getting rid of impurities but by gettind specific steel properties to defined parts of a blade. European sword smiths stopped doing that, first European steel became better and more homogenous and didn't require anywhere near as much imourity removal. Secondly, spring steel is pretty sturdy monosteel, so need need to get specific steel in specific parts of a blade. And lastky, European bladed weapons from the Napoleonic era onwards were industrially mass produced (as compared to the manufacture mass production from earlier periods). And mass production means cost reductions, that didn't start with MBAs. Sonce those weapons were good enough to kill people by stabbing, cutting and slashing them Damast steel wasn't needed. The obvious exception are expensive master pieces forged individually. And the better quality "industrial" ones. Damast steel has renessaonce at the moment, mainly because it looks great. And it is a way for knife makers to upsell, otherwise not a singpe one of them could compete on price. The Japanese way of blade making has the benefit of having properties of the alloy at, e.g., the blade (hard and sharp) and the core and back of a blade (softer and stronger). Damast steels properties are all over the place, meaning it has no real value, IMHO, regarding a blades capabilities when it c;mes to cutting. Those blades so, as the Japanese ones, are falling into the region of art so, and there the optical properties matter a lot. And there Damast is just beautiful. From experience so, Damast steel bars are hard to get rigjt, I'll go out on a limb and say Japanese bar steel is easier (if you forgo the tradidional Tamahagane way that is). Finishing the blade is easier woth Damast so, a proper Japanese blade requires so much delicate heat treatment and polishing to get right, it is borderline rediculous.
- robinsoh 4y ago
  > Lets call that steel from Damascus. That's confusing to me, what exactly was from Damascus, the steel or the forging technique? Reading the article OP cited says: "This suggests the possibility that the low levels of vanadium found in the genuine wootz blades of Table III may have resulted from ore deposits in India where the wootz steels were produced. "
usrusr 4y ago
Seems surprising at first sight that they still bothered to do the fancy process thing, if a regular blade made from that ore would have been about just as good. But us who live in the 21st century should not have any difficulty at all understanding the power of brand. I imagine it going like this: first, blades from a certain region start making a name for themselves for superior quality (thanks to the ore). Then a few things happen side by side, augmenting each other: - higher prices allow smiths to spend more time per blade - blades from that region become a status product, giving them almost exclusive access to the market segment that is willing to spend extra on fancy craftsmanship, resulting in even more time per blade - export markets get flooded with fakes that only claim to be from the high reputation region, some of the fancy craftsmanship ends up serving as a sign of authenticity
- hoseja 4y ago
  This sort of crucible steel was one of the only known ways to make steel before the modern processes were invented. It wasn't a "fancy process", it was the only process.
  - bodhiandpysics1 4y ago
    This isn't true. First the terminology is a bit weird. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. This fact was not known until the 19th century! Classial "wrought iron" (whih has a carbon content under 2%) has a similiar composition to what is now called mild steel (it has somewhat different physical properties because wrought iron has inclusions of slag because of how its made). Classical steel has a somewhat higher carbon content. Pig iron (or cast iron) has an even higher carbon content, and is the product of a blast furnace. Steel could be made in a number of ways. The process of creating wrought iron naturally produces some higher carbon steel, which could be removed. This is how japanese swordmaking works (they take higher carbon steel, and low carbon steel, and pound the together). The finery process, invented in china, but heavilly used in europe, involved taking pig iron, and slowly oxidizing it to remove carbon. For armor, case hardening involves baking wrought iron in carbon to cause the surface to become steel. The cementation process from early modern europe involved doing this, and then folding the steel to produce uniform metal. Indian steelmaking didn't involve pig iron, since india didn't use blast furnaces.
monetus 4y ago
R.I.P Alfred Pendray Here is a film of them making a wootz ingot and discussing vanadium. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4
- throwaway81523 4y ago
  Thanks for that link. The vid is a 50 minute documentary about damascus steel, featuring Al Pendray and others. I've only watched a small part of it but it looks really good. I will try to take in the rest soon.
  - monetus 4y ago
    Posted by mike loades, a personal hero of mine. The doc, you can tell, is kind of a celebratory recollection of how they worked through their research. Not the best editing and some awkward social moments but it is the only film like this I've ever seen.

throwaway81523 4y ago

Ok, I found a link to the VPD article: https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.html https://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/9809/Verhoeven-9809.ht...

michaelscott 4y ago

I didn't know this, that's really interesting. I, like I think many others, was under the impression that Damascus was a lost technique. I'm under the further impression though that our modern alloys have long since passed the standard of these ancient Damascus steels. Is that true?

hef19898 4y ago
No historical steel beat modern day steel alloys, not when it comes to quality nor to predictablility. You heat treat a certain SAE spec stell in a certain way and you get tye same result, within accepted and specified tolerances, regardless if batch. No such thing in the past. Also, modern day steel is just dirt cheap, even the higher spec monosteels.
- _0w8t 4y ago
  Some modern steel alloys from Sweden with extreme strength costs more than silver.
  - hef19898 4y ago
    It depends on production quantities, for sure. And don't get me started with aerospace grade heat treated high tensile stuff. The high spec mass produced stuff is still extremely cheap, if you can get it in small volumes. And whether or not those more esoteric alloys actually improve blade quality, well, I'm not sure. But the again at the higher end we talk more art work than tool, and art os following its own rules.

hef19898 4y ago

I think one has to seperate the steel alloy, which covered, and the forging techniques used. The former ran out, at which point steel quality decreased. Lets call that steel from Damascus. And there is what is now commonly called Damast steel, basically folded and twisted steel of dofferent properties. That technique is as old as blacksmithing because it was, more or less, the only way to get rid of impurities. The Japanese developed this technique to the extreme by not just getting rid of impurities but by gettind specific steel properties to defined parts of a blade. European sword smiths stopped doing that, first European steel became better and more homogenous and didn't require anywhere near as much imourity removal. Secondly, spring steel is pretty sturdy monosteel, so need need to get specific steel in specific parts of a blade. And lastky, European bladed weapons from the Napoleonic era onwards were industrially mass produced (as compared to the manufacture mass production from earlier periods). And mass production means cost reductions, that didn't start with MBAs. Sonce those weapons were good enough to kill people by stabbing, cutting and slashing them Damast steel wasn't needed. The obvious exception are expensive master pieces forged individually. And the better quality "industrial" ones. Damast steel has renessaonce at the moment, mainly because it looks great. And it is a way for knife makers to upsell, otherwise not a singpe one of them could compete on price. The Japanese way of blade making has the benefit of having properties of the alloy at, e.g., the blade (hard and sharp) and the core and back of a blade (softer and stronger). Damast steels properties are all over the place, meaning it has no real value, IMHO, regarding a blades capabilities when it c;mes to cutting. Those blades so, as the Japanese ones, are falling into the region of art so, and there the optical properties matter a lot. And there Damast is just beautiful. From experience so, Damast steel bars are hard to get rigjt, I'll go out on a limb and say Japanese bar steel is easier (if you forgo the tradidional Tamahagane way that is). Finishing the blade is easier woth Damast so, a proper Japanese blade requires so much delicate heat treatment and polishing to get right, it is borderline rediculous.

robinsoh 4y ago
> Lets call that steel from Damascus. That's confusing to me, what exactly was from Damascus, the steel or the forging technique? Reading the article OP cited says: "This suggests the possibility that the low levels of vanadium found in the genuine wootz blades of Table III may have resulted from ore deposits in India where the wootz steels were produced. "

usrusr 4y ago

Seems surprising at first sight that they still bothered to do the fancy process thing, if a regular blade made from that ore would have been about just as good. But us who live in the 21st century should not have any difficulty at all understanding the power of brand. I imagine it going like this: first, blades from a certain region start making a name for themselves for superior quality (thanks to the ore). Then a few things happen side by side, augmenting each other: - higher prices allow smiths to spend more time per blade - blades from that region become a status product, giving them almost exclusive access to the market segment that is willing to spend extra on fancy craftsmanship, resulting in even more time per blade - export markets get flooded with fakes that only claim to be from the high reputation region, some of the fancy craftsmanship ends up serving as a sign of authenticity

hoseja 4y ago
This sort of crucible steel was one of the only known ways to make steel before the modern processes were invented. It wasn't a "fancy process", it was the only process.
- bodhiandpysics1 4y ago
  This isn't true. First the terminology is a bit weird. Steel is an alloy of iron and carbon. This fact was not known until the 19th century! Classial "wrought iron" (whih has a carbon content under 2%) has a similiar composition to what is now called mild steel (it has somewhat different physical properties because wrought iron has inclusions of slag because of how its made). Classical steel has a somewhat higher carbon content. Pig iron (or cast iron) has an even higher carbon content, and is the product of a blast furnace. Steel could be made in a number of ways. The process of creating wrought iron naturally produces some higher carbon steel, which could be removed. This is how japanese swordmaking works (they take higher carbon steel, and low carbon steel, and pound the together). The finery process, invented in china, but heavilly used in europe, involved taking pig iron, and slowly oxidizing it to remove carbon. For armor, case hardening involves baking wrought iron in carbon to cause the surface to become steel. The cementation process from early modern europe involved doing this, and then folding the steel to produce uniform metal. Indian steelmaking didn't involve pig iron, since india didn't use blast furnaces.

monetus 4y ago

R.I.P Alfred Pendray Here is a film of them making a wootz ingot and discussing vanadium. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OP8PCkcBZU4

throwaway81523 4y ago
Thanks for that link. The vid is a 50 minute documentary about damascus steel, featuring Al Pendray and others. I've only watched a small part of it but it looks really good. I will try to take in the rest soon.
- monetus 4y ago
  Posted by mike loades, a personal hero of mine. The doc, you can tell, is kind of a celebratory recollection of how they worked through their research. Not the best editing and some awkward social moments but it is the only film like this I've ever seen.