4 ms·

Will have to "agree to disagree" on your conclusion here. GNOME 4 is superior to Windows and MacOS as low-friction, high-level OS in my experience. Control pan

Will have to "agree to disagree" on your conclusion here. GNOME 4 is superior to Windows and MacOS as low-friction, high-level OS in my experience. Control panel is clear, if spartan, three finger gestures stolen from MacOS "just work", and the desktop just stays out of the way so I can focus on the applications that I really care about. I have not had a "struggle with drivers" for over a decade with Ubuntu, Fedora, and Manjaro (YMMV in other distros of course, but it's much more uniform these days), and Windows has become even worse with doing unnecessary BS work in the background slowing down the GUI such that heavyweight desktops like GNOME and KDE feel as svelte as LXDE in comparison. I honestly can't stand any time I have to use a Windows machine due to how inconsistent the settings are, how many ~200-300ms pauses happen randomly, especially when I'm trying to type, and applications that don't "just work" but only because of the high marketshare I can google a solution. (MacOS is less viscerally disgusting to me, but more disappointing due to all of the "small" bugs that have creeped in despite having 100% control of the hardware in question. Wake-from-sleep shouldn't screw up the Wifi, unplugging and plugging back in an external monitor shouldn't shuffle the window locations, etc.)

sdflhasjd 4y ago
My big issue, and friction generator is that Linux - as a desktop - is always a year or more behind consumer hardware, and it unfortunately perpetually struggles with drivers. Last time I tried Linux, driver support for my new graphics card was poor, my multi-monitor displayport setup was unsupported, DPI scaling - despite even Windows supporting it well for the previous 5 years - was quite bad (and non-integer scaling especially so). Even my CPU simply didn't work without some custom boot args. So when it comes to "just works", the year of the linux desktop is here if your hardware is at least 2 years old. There's nothing wrong with 2-year-old hardware, but whenever I get a new computer, I install Windows and it just works, rarely do I ever have a good enough reason to switch to Linux given the effort involved.
- ISV_Damocles 4y ago
  Sorry you've been unlucky, but I've bought brand new Dell and Lenovo laptops and slapped Fedora on them and they just worked with no driver BS involved. Literally did this just a few months ago. Ubuntu/Debian tend to take longer to support brand new hardware because they're more conservative with kernel updates, but you can also just use the System76 PPA to get a super-recent kernel on Ubuntu. But faster-paced or rolling distros like Fedora or Manjaro are best for that kind of thing. I haven't had a single GPU-related issue, AMD or nVidia, for about a decade, if you're willing to go with non-free drivers.
  - bmitc 4y ago
    I think your experience is the outlier and not that the other person was "unlucky". Screen sharing is not working on a "mobile desktop" Thinkpad laptop with Red Hat Linux, a paid Linux distribution no less, freshly installed due to poor communication between several screen sharing apps and drivers or just poor drivers. Outlook is not available for Linux. And the least keeps on going. > I haven't had a single GPU-related issue, AMD or nVidia, for about a decade While I might be off-base, I would wager that you have probably forgotten and not noticed the amount of times you have debugged these things and other driver-related issues.
    - ISV_Damocles 4y ago
      No, I hate debugging on personal machines. I really haven't had GPU driver issues for 10 years on any of my Linux machines, and it's a pretty eclectic mix of Ubuntu, Fedora, Manjaro, and now one Steam Deck on SteamOS.
xmonkee 4y ago
You know I totally agree with you on Gnome being superior. Heck, my preferred WM is DWM and I would use it every day if I could. But here I am, on a Mac, just because I just CANNOT deal with another hardware related issue again. I used desktop linux most of my life (ages 12-28). But with a job and a family, I just don't have time for a single second of down time or debugging my computer. Same for android vs iOS. Used Android for 10 years, switched to iOS. Tried to go back with Pixel 3a, and it would freeze up maybe once a month. That's too much for me. My iPhone has frozen up maybe once in 2 years. Before you judge me, I do extensive infra shit at work and fix broken systems all the time. I just cannot deal with it on my personal devices.
- ISV_Damocles 4y ago
  No judgment. Same reasoning for me. In 2016 the bugs with MacOS got annoying enough that I looked around again and I had a more stable experience with GNOME 3 on a Dell laptop than anything on MacOS or Windows and switched. I had way more problems debugging weird crap with the Wifi when walking between meetings with my MacBook Air, annoyed that when I plugged back into my monitor at my desk I would have to rearrange my windows on my desktops again (GNOME 4 puts the windows back where they were if you plug back into the exact same monitor). And dealing with Homebrew BS because Apple likes to break it on OS updates and sometimes it would break randomly on its own while Debian-derived distros never have package issues pushed me back. Just saying that you really ought to try it out again, and Fedora is a super-polished GNOME experience if you want "Mac-like, but not annoying."
bmitc 4y ago
GNOME isn't an OS is it, so how is it superior to Windows and macOS? It's just a desktop shell as far as I know. So even that shows the downsides of Linux: "Hey, try GNOME." "Ok, what distribution?" I used to be a heavy Macbook user but am no longer. I use Windows because it simply has the least amount of friction. Every time I try Linux for anything other than a certain style of software development, it's an endless chain of web searching and configuration. Windows is far superior to macOS in terms of memory management. On a high-end Macbook Pro with 16GB, I am almost always maxed out, and the Macbook can't even drive my monitor properly with a dedicated graphics card. Mouse and keyboard settings reset every other day. I can't even imagine how much time I would have to spend setting up just my monitor, webcam, mouse, and keyboard setup with Linux, if drivers and applications are even available. My Windows laptops and desktops don't have any of these issues.
- ISV_Damocles 4y ago
  I am pointing at GNOME because from my experience you can basically substitute any of the big distros these days and get a near identical experience. What webcam, mouse, or keyboard doesn't work with Linux? I have not run into one, and I have several weird ones like the Tap keyboard.
- UncleEntity 4y ago
  Other than the fingerprint scanner thing on my touchpad I haven’t encountered a non- working out of the box piece of hardware on a laptop for so long I don’t even know how long its been. And apparently the fingerprint scanner works but I just never got around to it because I don’t care. So, I have spent zero minutes setting up hardware on Linux in at least the last 15 years and then it was one of those hand tracking things the company donated to the Blender Foundation that I ended up with which was experimental so didn’t have drivers in the distro.

sdflhasjd 4y ago

My big issue, and friction generator is that Linux - as a desktop - is always a year or more behind consumer hardware, and it unfortunately perpetually struggles with drivers. Last time I tried Linux, driver support for my new graphics card was poor, my multi-monitor displayport setup was unsupported, DPI scaling - despite even Windows supporting it well for the previous 5 years - was quite bad (and non-integer scaling especially so). Even my CPU simply didn't work without some custom boot args. So when it comes to "just works", the year of the linux desktop is here if your hardware is at least 2 years old. There's nothing wrong with 2-year-old hardware, but whenever I get a new computer, I install Windows and it just works, rarely do I ever have a good enough reason to switch to Linux given the effort involved.

ISV_Damocles 4y ago
Sorry you've been unlucky, but I've bought brand new Dell and Lenovo laptops and slapped Fedora on them and they just worked with no driver BS involved. Literally did this just a few months ago. Ubuntu/Debian tend to take longer to support brand new hardware because they're more conservative with kernel updates, but you can also just use the System76 PPA to get a super-recent kernel on Ubuntu. But faster-paced or rolling distros like Fedora or Manjaro are best for that kind of thing. I haven't had a single GPU-related issue, AMD or nVidia, for about a decade, if you're willing to go with non-free drivers.
- bmitc 4y ago
  I think your experience is the outlier and not that the other person was "unlucky". Screen sharing is not working on a "mobile desktop" Thinkpad laptop with Red Hat Linux, a paid Linux distribution no less, freshly installed due to poor communication between several screen sharing apps and drivers or just poor drivers. Outlook is not available for Linux. And the least keeps on going. > I haven't had a single GPU-related issue, AMD or nVidia, for about a decade While I might be off-base, I would wager that you have probably forgotten and not noticed the amount of times you have debugged these things and other driver-related issues.
  - ISV_Damocles 4y ago
    No, I hate debugging on personal machines. I really haven't had GPU driver issues for 10 years on any of my Linux machines, and it's a pretty eclectic mix of Ubuntu, Fedora, Manjaro, and now one Steam Deck on SteamOS.

xmonkee 4y ago

You know I totally agree with you on Gnome being superior. Heck, my preferred WM is DWM and I would use it every day if I could. But here I am, on a Mac, just because I just CANNOT deal with another hardware related issue again. I used desktop linux most of my life (ages 12-28). But with a job and a family, I just don't have time for a single second of down time or debugging my computer. Same for android vs iOS. Used Android for 10 years, switched to iOS. Tried to go back with Pixel 3a, and it would freeze up maybe once a month. That's too much for me. My iPhone has frozen up maybe once in 2 years. Before you judge me, I do extensive infra shit at work and fix broken systems all the time. I just cannot deal with it on my personal devices.

ISV_Damocles 4y ago
No judgment. Same reasoning for me. In 2016 the bugs with MacOS got annoying enough that I looked around again and I had a more stable experience with GNOME 3 on a Dell laptop than anything on MacOS or Windows and switched. I had way more problems debugging weird crap with the Wifi when walking between meetings with my MacBook Air, annoyed that when I plugged back into my monitor at my desk I would have to rearrange my windows on my desktops again (GNOME 4 puts the windows back where they were if you plug back into the exact same monitor). And dealing with Homebrew BS because Apple likes to break it on OS updates and sometimes it would break randomly on its own while Debian-derived distros never have package issues pushed me back. Just saying that you really ought to try it out again, and Fedora is a super-polished GNOME experience if you want "Mac-like, but not annoying."

bmitc 4y ago

GNOME isn't an OS is it, so how is it superior to Windows and macOS? It's just a desktop shell as far as I know. So even that shows the downsides of Linux: "Hey, try GNOME." "Ok, what distribution?" I used to be a heavy Macbook user but am no longer. I use Windows because it simply has the least amount of friction. Every time I try Linux for anything other than a certain style of software development, it's an endless chain of web searching and configuration. Windows is far superior to macOS in terms of memory management. On a high-end Macbook Pro with 16GB, I am almost always maxed out, and the Macbook can't even drive my monitor properly with a dedicated graphics card. Mouse and keyboard settings reset every other day. I can't even imagine how much time I would have to spend setting up just my monitor, webcam, mouse, and keyboard setup with Linux, if drivers and applications are even available. My Windows laptops and desktops don't have any of these issues.

ISV_Damocles 4y ago
I am pointing at GNOME because from my experience you can basically substitute any of the big distros these days and get a near identical experience. What webcam, mouse, or keyboard doesn't work with Linux? I have not run into one, and I have several weird ones like the Tap keyboard.
UncleEntity 4y ago
Other than the fingerprint scanner thing on my touchpad I haven’t encountered a non- working out of the box piece of hardware on a laptop for so long I don’t even know how long its been. And apparently the fingerprint scanner works but I just never got around to it because I don’t care. So, I have spent zero minutes setting up hardware on Linux in at least the last 15 years and then it was one of those hand tracking things the company donated to the Blender Foundation that I ended up with which was experimental so didn’t have drivers in the distro.