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Three years ago a HN user named Dexwiz wrote something that hit me hard. I'd felt this, but I never saw it put in to words so well. https://news.ycombinator.co

Three years ago a HN user named Dexwiz wrote something that hit me hard. I'd felt this, but I never saw it put in to words so well. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20470085 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20470085 """ The Screen and the Job have displaced almost everything else is our lives. Loneliness is just a primary symptom. The Screen, whether it’s TV, computer, or phone, has supplanted almost all social interactions. This manifests itself in things like SitComs on TV (just a bunch of friends or family hanging out) or Social Media on phones. It’s very easy to fill the social needs of right now with a Screen. But under even a minuscule amount of self reflection these are revealed as hollow substitutes for real human interaction. The Job has completely taken over as a driving force in evaluating choices. The average person has to consider all options in the light of both the current employer and the specter of tomorrow’s. Moving across the country for a high paying job? Great! Moving to be closer to friends? That’s a career killer. No wonder we are lonely. We make choices in the short term that optimize happiness, often at the expense of our relationships. Ghosting is not just for dates now. Then turn around and make choices in the long term that optimize employability at the expense of all else. """

jszymborski 4y ago
> Ghosting is not just for dates now. Then turn around and make choices in the long term that optimize employability at the expense of all else. This resonates with me (on both receiving and dealing ends). The lack of physical immediacy that IRL communities offer means it's easier to let relationships die off. One way to combat this that I've taken: Whenever I have a fond memory of someone I don't talk to as much as you used to, drop them a line. Send an email/DM, check-up on them, maybe share the memory. Then, have a call to action. If they're in your vicinity, invite them for a pint/warm beverage. If I don't have the courage or time at the moment, I make a calendar event in the near future. The key is to treat it as something important. Even if catching up doesn't mean you'll be meeting up every weekend or have a lively chat, you've reduced the friction of starting up a conversation then next time you feel like reaching out. The major discovery I made is that in every single case, no matter how long its been, I've never regretted this. Things have never been weird or awkward between friends. After I finished my master's degree, I realised there was a host of friends I'd left behind for over 3 years while I focused on my studies. My fear was that the ship had sailed with them, that they had moved on. I was so crazy wrong. With real connections, every time you pick up the phone, you just pick up where you left off.
Teknoman117 4y ago
I ended up choosing to move closer to friends. I saw them "virtually" for the first 4 years of my career because I was the one who left, but then the pandemic happened. Lived with my parents for the first two years of it so I'd have someone to talk to, but the fully remote work life either changed me or gave me new perspective. Maybe it was going into the pandemic having just turned 27 and spending the previous year having a blast and coming out of it having the "almost 30" anxiety, but after the vaccines I started seeing friends regularly I hadn't seen in years. Eventually decided to just stay back. My employer had an office up here so I "transferred" even though I'm still by and large a remote employee. I stayed inside playing video games for a number of reasons as my primary hobby during the first few years out of college. It was mainly me being depressed about not having any physically local friends, unfounded health anxiety, etc. Either way, 2019 (age 26) felt like a new dawn. I started making drastically more money, I started travelling - sometimes alone and sometimes with friends, etc. Started going to meetups. Then the damn pandemic. Next two years locked inside. Then I started regretting all those weekends spent inside. So I got an apartment with an old college buddy around a dozen or more friends and am finally having a good time again. Not going to use video games as a replacement for a real social life. I'll keep playing them with remote friends, but it's a supplement to a healthy social life, rather than the only outlet.
tomp 4y ago
Well, not entirely. I moved to be able to have a family (more child-friendly & car-friendly environment) and found a better job. But then I realize I'm extremely privileged as a programmer and that most people don't have that choice (and even for me, the choices are limited, NYC > London > Zürich > Ljubljana with each step at least 2x difference in compensation)
- ChuckNorris89 4y ago
  >Ljubljana Can I ask what Ljubljana is doing on that list? Every Slovene dev I met was driving 2h/day to work in Austria at a 50k/year job, so the local market must be really depressing if that's what they're willing to go through.
  - tomp 4y ago
    It’s where I’m from originally. Low salary and miserably low bonuses aren’t the only issues; others are high taxes and poor healthcare (no private insurance). Though from a local perspective even a “modest” salary of 2500€/month net enables an average quality of life, which is actually very high compared to other European countries (provided you own property, which many people do). So, tradeoffs.
- CalRobert 4y ago
  Interestingly Ljubljana is on my shortlist of livable cities. I didn't mention it in my original comment but car-dependent suburban design patterns also increase isolation, I think. When I lived in a flat in the middle of Dublin I became friends with several of my neighbours. Where I am now (which is admittedly countryside, not suburban) not so much.
xtracto 4y ago
Great insight! Another thing I came to realise is that current "social" media is extremely de-personalized (lack of a better term): back in the 80s and 90s, I participated in many public online places (I have always been shy in person). Those places (irc channels, WBS.net, ICQ, BBSs) were actually very social in that you actually made friendships. I travelled half the country after being invited to a Linux User Group! Nowadays must public "social" media interactions do not promote that sort of affinity. Like, I'm replying to you... but not really, I'm just replying to your comment in this page. It is very rare to establish even a loose relationship with people in today's online pages. And it doesn't have to be super close. I still have 2 acquaintances I made in the 90s, one is a girl that we happened to stumble upon in WBS chat, we were from different countries so it was exciting to chat. We just say hi from time to time. The second is a person in Norway with which we shared metal music joy. We met after we both signed a "guest book" , shared Live Messenger accounts and sporadically chatted. Even a cursory view of subreddits like /suicidewatch were people are supposed to be close, you read a lot of comments like "I care for you friend" which are hollow. I miss those sort of interactions.
- nootropicat 4y ago
  Those interactions moved to discord (and telegram, although that's second-hand info). I fully understand what you describe, and once I realized the truly abysmal return on time spent I cut my time on public social media by ~100x. It's just not worth it beyond an occasional comment.
- hbn 4y ago
  Small dedicated communities where people know each other by (user)name are still around, but you have to hunt a little more. The bigger issue is seemingly any community made up of nice people eventually pushes them all out when identity politics cry-bullies show up. It's happened to multiple communities I've been part of.
- ajmurmann 4y ago
  Especially with BBSs there was a lot broader focus than on the thing they were formally about. For years I was active on a retrogaming forum. The forum of course had topic areas related to retro gaming, but more than half of them had nothing to do with that. We had movies, video games, quizzes, music, off-topic and probably a bunch more that I cannot remember. I think that led to people to actually form a community rather than only interacting on a narrow subject where you are supposed to stay on topic. I learned so much random stuff about people there. There of course were get togethers every other year or so. I think things have gotten too focused and purpose-driven. Seems like a continuation of a general trend in society
wonderwonder 4y ago
"The Screen, whether it’s TV, computer, or phone, has supplanted almost all social interactions." this is very true and the most terrifying part is I see it in my kids, addicted to their video games. They play online games with their friends and actively communicate but I when I tell them no games today they have lost the ability to entertain themselves. They just kind of hang around hoping I am going to let them play. Its pretty sad and I working on figuring it out but also trapped in my own screen working 9 - 10 hours a day.

jszymborski 4y ago

> Ghosting is not just for dates now. Then turn around and make choices in the long term that optimize employability at the expense of all else. This resonates with me (on both receiving and dealing ends). The lack of physical immediacy that IRL communities offer means it's easier to let relationships die off. One way to combat this that I've taken: Whenever I have a fond memory of someone I don't talk to as much as you used to, drop them a line. Send an email/DM, check-up on them, maybe share the memory. Then, have a call to action. If they're in your vicinity, invite them for a pint/warm beverage. If I don't have the courage or time at the moment, I make a calendar event in the near future. The key is to treat it as something important. Even if catching up doesn't mean you'll be meeting up every weekend or have a lively chat, you've reduced the friction of starting up a conversation then next time you feel like reaching out. The major discovery I made is that in every single case, no matter how long its been, I've never regretted this. Things have never been weird or awkward between friends. After I finished my master's degree, I realised there was a host of friends I'd left behind for over 3 years while I focused on my studies. My fear was that the ship had sailed with them, that they had moved on. I was so crazy wrong. With real connections, every time you pick up the phone, you just pick up where you left off.

Teknoman117 4y ago

I ended up choosing to move closer to friends. I saw them "virtually" for the first 4 years of my career because I was the one who left, but then the pandemic happened. Lived with my parents for the first two years of it so I'd have someone to talk to, but the fully remote work life either changed me or gave me new perspective. Maybe it was going into the pandemic having just turned 27 and spending the previous year having a blast and coming out of it having the "almost 30" anxiety, but after the vaccines I started seeing friends regularly I hadn't seen in years. Eventually decided to just stay back. My employer had an office up here so I "transferred" even though I'm still by and large a remote employee. I stayed inside playing video games for a number of reasons as my primary hobby during the first few years out of college. It was mainly me being depressed about not having any physically local friends, unfounded health anxiety, etc. Either way, 2019 (age 26) felt like a new dawn. I started making drastically more money, I started travelling - sometimes alone and sometimes with friends, etc. Started going to meetups. Then the damn pandemic. Next two years locked inside. Then I started regretting all those weekends spent inside. So I got an apartment with an old college buddy around a dozen or more friends and am finally having a good time again. Not going to use video games as a replacement for a real social life. I'll keep playing them with remote friends, but it's a supplement to a healthy social life, rather than the only outlet.

tomp 4y ago

Well, not entirely. I moved to be able to have a family (more child-friendly & car-friendly environment) and found a better job. But then I realize I'm extremely privileged as a programmer and that most people don't have that choice (and even for me, the choices are limited, NYC > London > Zürich > Ljubljana with each step at least 2x difference in compensation)

ChuckNorris89 4y ago
>Ljubljana Can I ask what Ljubljana is doing on that list? Every Slovene dev I met was driving 2h/day to work in Austria at a 50k/year job, so the local market must be really depressing if that's what they're willing to go through.
- tomp 4y ago
  It’s where I’m from originally. Low salary and miserably low bonuses aren’t the only issues; others are high taxes and poor healthcare (no private insurance). Though from a local perspective even a “modest” salary of 2500€/month net enables an average quality of life, which is actually very high compared to other European countries (provided you own property, which many people do). So, tradeoffs.
CalRobert 4y ago
Interestingly Ljubljana is on my shortlist of livable cities. I didn't mention it in my original comment but car-dependent suburban design patterns also increase isolation, I think. When I lived in a flat in the middle of Dublin I became friends with several of my neighbours. Where I am now (which is admittedly countryside, not suburban) not so much.

xtracto 4y ago

Great insight! Another thing I came to realise is that current "social" media is extremely de-personalized (lack of a better term): back in the 80s and 90s, I participated in many public online places (I have always been shy in person). Those places (irc channels, WBS.net, ICQ, BBSs) were actually very social in that you actually made friendships. I travelled half the country after being invited to a Linux User Group! Nowadays must public "social" media interactions do not promote that sort of affinity. Like, I'm replying to you... but not really, I'm just replying to your comment in this page. It is very rare to establish even a loose relationship with people in today's online pages. And it doesn't have to be super close. I still have 2 acquaintances I made in the 90s, one is a girl that we happened to stumble upon in WBS chat, we were from different countries so it was exciting to chat. We just say hi from time to time. The second is a person in Norway with which we shared metal music joy. We met after we both signed a "guest book" , shared Live Messenger accounts and sporadically chatted. Even a cursory view of subreddits like /suicidewatch were people are supposed to be close, you read a lot of comments like "I care for you friend" which are hollow. I miss those sort of interactions.

nootropicat 4y ago
Those interactions moved to discord (and telegram, although that's second-hand info). I fully understand what you describe, and once I realized the truly abysmal return on time spent I cut my time on public social media by ~100x. It's just not worth it beyond an occasional comment.
hbn 4y ago
Small dedicated communities where people know each other by (user)name are still around, but you have to hunt a little more. The bigger issue is seemingly any community made up of nice people eventually pushes them all out when identity politics cry-bullies show up. It's happened to multiple communities I've been part of.
ajmurmann 4y ago
Especially with BBSs there was a lot broader focus than on the thing they were formally about. For years I was active on a retrogaming forum. The forum of course had topic areas related to retro gaming, but more than half of them had nothing to do with that. We had movies, video games, quizzes, music, off-topic and probably a bunch more that I cannot remember. I think that led to people to actually form a community rather than only interacting on a narrow subject where you are supposed to stay on topic. I learned so much random stuff about people there. There of course were get togethers every other year or so. I think things have gotten too focused and purpose-driven. Seems like a continuation of a general trend in society

wonderwonder 4y ago

"The Screen, whether it’s TV, computer, or phone, has supplanted almost all social interactions." this is very true and the most terrifying part is I see it in my kids, addicted to their video games. They play online games with their friends and actively communicate but I when I tell them no games today they have lost the ability to entertain themselves. They just kind of hang around hoping I am going to let them play. Its pretty sad and I working on figuring it out but also trapped in my own screen working 9 - 10 hours a day.