4 ms·

I don't know why but there seems to be some outsized group of people that thrives on reducing social interactions to numbers. I remember seeing a lot of this in

I don't know why but there seems to be some outsized group of people that thrives on reducing social interactions to numbers. I remember seeing a lot of this in self-destructive subreddits (eg MGTOW). Maybe it's so they can write off self-improvement (you can't argue with math!)?

rowanG077 4y ago
Isn't MGTOW a self-improvement sub?
- Minor49er 4y ago
  MGTOW's major proponents will go out of their way to demonize women whenever they can. It's common for these people to turn towards things like RealDolls (the supposedly lifelike sex dolls) and anime starring under-aged girls. Raging Golden Eagle on YouTube is the poster boy of this kind of MGTOW advocate. Self-improvement isn't at odds with pursuing healthy relationships with the opposite sex.
  - XorNot 4y ago
    I've noticed most of those types of groups essentially use self-improvement as the vector to ship the hate message. Which is pretty classic cult behaviour in the end: build a support network, isolate people from other networks (by making them evangelists for you) and then threaten to cut them off if they don't go long with the rest of the message.
    - heretogetout 4y ago
      This is also how non-hate groups rope people in -- Scientology, for example, literally starts with the premise that they can help you improve yourself from t=0.
  - rowanG077 4y ago
    Self-improvement definitely isn't at odds with pursuing healthy relationships with the opposite sex. But from what I gathered MGTOW is(was?) simply a movement that wanted to improve their lives by being comfortable without being in a relationship for various reasons. I never got a misogynistic vibe from them. But it's literally years ago I had read about them. They could very well have gone the Incel route over time. Which was a non-toxic movement in the beginning as well.
    - eropple 4y ago
      That's never what the MGTOW people asserted in any serious way. From the jump it was "the world is 'sexually prejudiced' against us men [or capital-M Men when they were being extra weird] and so we should separate from it entirely." It immediately leapt right into what would today be called "cope" how even if you do get married she'll just divorce you for a studly chad and take all your stuff, the fear of feminists (hiss! never mind that mainstream feminist study is pretty in on the assertion "this is bad for dudes too"! hiss!), all that. As a side effect of this insularity, for some people trapped in it there were definitely some self-improvement vibes. But that was never the goal of the people developing its, for lack of a better term, theory. I used to study online right-wing and fascist movements as they evolved. The incel and MGTOW crowds absolutely went towards a fearful, hard-right-wing view of the world as fast as they could be led towards it. It is difficult to gin up another reading of the core stuff that doesn't depend on being super, super credulous. ETA: 'XorNot, in a sibling reply to yours, raises a really good and thoughtful point about the self-improvement gimmick being a good way to rope suckers into your movement, and it's worth thinking about.
      - rowanG077 4y ago
        It's not "my" movement. I was triggered by someone saying it is a hate movement when this was not my impression. I just went back using the wayback machine to a random page from 2015: http://web.archive.org/web/20150813192410/https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150813192410/https://www.reddit... There doesn't seem to be any weird stuff there but I'm not a social scientist so I will have to take your word for it. I'm not so invested to start a heated discussion about this anyway.
- mmastrac 4y ago
  If it started that way, it probably ended up going down the incel hole. It's banned now, obviously.
  - fknorangesite 4y ago
    > If it started that way It didn't. In this pipeline, the incels are an earlier stage; MGTOW is for the incels that (ostensibly) are giving up on women entirely. Of course in practice they do no such thing - instead they focus even harder on blaming women for their problems.
- rjbwork 4y ago
  No not really. As a person that nominally fits the label as stated, those MGTOW dudes are just toxic women haters. They have some kind of fucked up unresolved issues with women but it's all couched in some self-justifying logic. Personally I'm just a lazy, irresponsible, and selfish person, so I think a life of relationships and children is not appropriate for me, so I don't pursue those things. That does not appear to be the case for most of the men who adopt the label. There seems to be genuine hate there.
- MisterBastahrd 4y ago
  It's just the leftovers from the incel sub, now with more Jordan Peterson quotes.
thowaway923432 4y ago
While I agree MGTOW is cringe, dating is initially a numbers game. I have way more matches in a densely populated area such as SF Bay area. Timing and luck play in to it as well, multiple people in my social circle would have dated me if they weren't LTR'd prior.

rowanG077 4y ago

Isn't MGTOW a self-improvement sub?

Minor49er 4y ago
MGTOW's major proponents will go out of their way to demonize women whenever they can. It's common for these people to turn towards things like RealDolls (the supposedly lifelike sex dolls) and anime starring under-aged girls. Raging Golden Eagle on YouTube is the poster boy of this kind of MGTOW advocate. Self-improvement isn't at odds with pursuing healthy relationships with the opposite sex.
- XorNot 4y ago
  I've noticed most of those types of groups essentially use self-improvement as the vector to ship the hate message. Which is pretty classic cult behaviour in the end: build a support network, isolate people from other networks (by making them evangelists for you) and then threaten to cut them off if they don't go long with the rest of the message.
  - heretogetout 4y ago
    This is also how non-hate groups rope people in -- Scientology, for example, literally starts with the premise that they can help you improve yourself from t=0.
- rowanG077 4y ago
  Self-improvement definitely isn't at odds with pursuing healthy relationships with the opposite sex. But from what I gathered MGTOW is(was?) simply a movement that wanted to improve their lives by being comfortable without being in a relationship for various reasons. I never got a misogynistic vibe from them. But it's literally years ago I had read about them. They could very well have gone the Incel route over time. Which was a non-toxic movement in the beginning as well.
  - eropple 4y ago
    That's never what the MGTOW people asserted in any serious way. From the jump it was "the world is 'sexually prejudiced' against us men [or capital-M Men when they were being extra weird] and so we should separate from it entirely." It immediately leapt right into what would today be called "cope" how even if you do get married she'll just divorce you for a studly chad and take all your stuff, the fear of feminists (hiss! never mind that mainstream feminist study is pretty in on the assertion "this is bad for dudes too"! hiss!), all that. As a side effect of this insularity, for some people trapped in it there were definitely some self-improvement vibes. But that was never the goal of the people developing its, for lack of a better term, theory. I used to study online right-wing and fascist movements as they evolved. The incel and MGTOW crowds absolutely went towards a fearful, hard-right-wing view of the world as fast as they could be led towards it. It is difficult to gin up another reading of the core stuff that doesn't depend on being super, super credulous. ETA: 'XorNot, in a sibling reply to yours, raises a really good and thoughtful point about the self-improvement gimmick being a good way to rope suckers into your movement, and it's worth thinking about.
    - rowanG077 4y ago
      It's not "my" movement. I was triggered by someone saying it is a hate movement when this was not my impression. I just went back using the wayback machine to a random page from 2015: http://web.archive.org/web/20150813192410/https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ http://web.archive.org/web/20150813192410/https://www.reddit... There doesn't seem to be any weird stuff there but I'm not a social scientist so I will have to take your word for it. I'm not so invested to start a heated discussion about this anyway.
mmastrac 4y ago
If it started that way, it probably ended up going down the incel hole. It's banned now, obviously.
- fknorangesite 4y ago
  > If it started that way It didn't. In this pipeline, the incels are an earlier stage; MGTOW is for the incels that (ostensibly) are giving up on women entirely. Of course in practice they do no such thing - instead they focus even harder on blaming women for their problems.
rjbwork 4y ago
No not really. As a person that nominally fits the label as stated, those MGTOW dudes are just toxic women haters. They have some kind of fucked up unresolved issues with women but it's all couched in some self-justifying logic. Personally I'm just a lazy, irresponsible, and selfish person, so I think a life of relationships and children is not appropriate for me, so I don't pursue those things. That does not appear to be the case for most of the men who adopt the label. There seems to be genuine hate there.
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
It's just the leftovers from the incel sub, now with more Jordan Peterson quotes.

thowaway923432 4y ago

While I agree MGTOW is cringe, dating is initially a numbers game. I have way more matches in a densely populated area such as SF Bay area. Timing and luck play in to it as well, multiple people in my social circle would have dated me if they weren't LTR'd prior.