4 ms·

There are so many incel type comments in this thread and anytime this subject comes up. Online dating definitely isn’t fun but it’s not the shit show people he

There are so many incel type comments in this thread and anytime this subject comes up. Online dating definitely isn’t fun but it’s not the shit show people here seem to make out. All of my friends met their long terms partners on dating apps. None of these men are particularly attractive. All are average looking at best. Personally I went from never dating to going on dates with a handful of people over a 6 month period (all found on dating apps) to finding my long term partner. Everyone I met in person was nice and looking for a long term relationship. They were all attractive (to me at least) but objectively of average appearance or slightly below. I’m overweight and average looking at best. If you are really struggling on these apps I’d suggest losing the negative attitude and lowering your standards in terms of partners appearance. There are lots of wonderful people out there but you aren’t going to meet them when you swipe right on everyone, complain that women have it too easy, and expect a supermodel to swipe right on you.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago
I'm going to be real with you, this sounds similar to the "the job market isn't that bad, yes it's bad but I got a job right out of college" spiel bypassing evidence that many people send hundreds of job applications before they ever get a job. Studies show most people meet online. Studies show most people struggle in dating markets. These are not mutually exclusive. But unlike jobs, one doesn't need to date to live, even if having a partner is a major point of fulfillment to most.
- lesstyzing 4y ago
  I can see your comparison but I disagree. In a normal job market most people can come out of a college a get a job. It just might not be the flashy job they think they deserve. Maybe they have to wash dishes or stick shelves when they’re trained for something else. Dating is similar. You can get a date if you’re willing to compromise on looks. Some people just won’t even entertain that idea or won’t entertain the idea that they might have to aim even lower than they expected.
  - BlargMcLarg 4y ago
    I hope I don't need to tell you why this comparison is incredibly flawed. If you treat dating the same way as jobhunting and your answer is "just get a dead end job", you're encouraging people to enter a lot of bad relationships and a lot of breaking hearts. Not to mention many people do not consider "just a date" a net positive, or even "just a date and sex". Beyond that, you still haven't addressed the elephant in the room: jobs are necessary to survive for most people, whereas celibacy doesn't kill.
wnolens 4y ago
This is my experience too. There's lots of nice people out there trying to meet. You just need to know what you want, be actually ready to take the leap, and are realistic about your value (sorry to phrase it like that but it IS a market)
- lesstyzing 4y ago
  Totally agree. If you’re struggling to succeed on dating apps you need to reassess your value. It sounds a bit horrible but better to be realistic and eventually happy, than to demonise the people who aren’t picking you and turn angry at the world.
  - cholantesh 4y ago
    >If you’re struggling to succeed on dating apps you need to reassess your value Or at least your profile...
  - asdswe 4y ago
bena 4y ago
There's also some very weird survivorship bias going on. Everyone you meet is the child of people who have sex. Even if they had the child via in vitro or adopted or whatever. Your parents fuck. So your parents fuck. Your friends' parents fuck. That asshole who bullies you in high school. Their parents fuck. It really does seem like everyone is fucking all the time. You live in a neighborhood where most people will also have kids. All those people? Fucking. You know what happens to people who don't fuck? They don't have families. You never get to really interact with them until you or your friends become those people later in life. And it makes you wonder why you aren't fucking because when you were growing up, it seemed like everyone was. But it was only a very specific subset of people that made up your circle.
- wccrawford 4y ago
  Not having kids doesn't mean they aren't having sex. It isn't only a "very specific subset" of any circle.
  - bena 4y ago
    Right. But if you aren't having sex, you aren't having kids. Growing up, you grow up in family. You grow up around families. You grow up around a group of adults who have all had sex. The more you grow up and become independent and your circle deviates from those of your parents, the more likely it is you will start running into people who haven't had sex. Or don't have as many opportunities to do so. You may even become one of those people. You think they're rarer than they are because you grow up surrounded by people who have sex. People with kids is a very specific subset. So people like the article's author think people are having less sex when the reality is that he just knows more people who aren't having as much sex as his parents and their circle did.
havblue 4y ago
I think it partially depends on the app you use as well. You ultimately need to figure out what people are using in your region.
tristor 4y ago
I'm going to out myself a bit by making this comment, but I want to just say that you dismissing these comments as being "incel type" and saying that it's much ado about nothing is unfair and inaccurate. You are missing important context, and likely have a varied experience compared to these other people. I was a home-owner at 26, make an outsized income compared to both the national average and my local average, am well-traveled, educated, and by conventional standards am at average or slightly above average attractiveness. Despite all of this, I had an absolutely horrible time with dating until I was in my 30s. I am now married to a wonderful woman I met 5 years ago through a dating app, after years of frustration. The main thing I discovered in this journey is: 1. Older men (but not too old, 30s/40s) get better traction than younger men (teens, 20s), even if you are an outlier in success as a younger man 2. Women have a vastly different assessment of attractiveness than men do. There is TONS of data to support this, and it's basically incontrovertible at this point. I don't know if dating apps caused it, or it just revealed it, but women basically have a Pareto distribution of how they judge attractiveness. Only 20% of men pass the filter, the remaining 80% are never going to get a response. Men have a much more normal distribution (follows a bell curve) in how they view attractiveness. 3. The two things above mean that a (relatively) small number of men have success, and don't see the problem, while a (relatively) large amount of men are left out in the cold. You might think my 3 points above sound "incel type", yet I'm a married guy who absolutely supports the rights of women and their equality in society. This is not about politics, this is not about misogyny, this is not about frustration turning to anger. This is about the facts and the lived experience of millions of people, especially younger people, and how it drives societal trends. I watch many of friends who also work in tech struggling still even in their 30s because they are conventionally less attractive than I am, despite being better than me in other ways (smarter, more financially successful), and these are by the general standards of the day successful and stable people who cannot find a relationship. People who are farther down the income and intelligence curve struggle even further. This article didn't come out of nowhere, and this issue isn't only in the US. All over the OECD we are seeing falling birth rates, falling marriage rates, and self-reported reductions in sexual activity and relationships. What this means for society and our future, I don't know, but it will certainly mean a change of some kind. Sticking your head in the sand and deriding the people stating these things clearly does not do anything to understand or address this situation. If you personally faced no challenges in using online dating, then I would put forward that you are probably privileged in some way you don't realize and that your experience is unusual, rather than being the norm. One challenge many people haven't even mentioned yet in these comment threads is that online dating is fundamentally not a very good way to approach finding a relationship, and there is a different between "dating" for hookups and dating for finding a relationship. Most people are not satisfied with hookups, even when they can get them, and would prefer the more meaningful relationship. There are thankfully a few better apps in that direction, but as a general case an app is not a good basis for selecting someone to know on a deeper level, as apps emphasize the most shallow and curated view of people rather than the process of meeting people organically through shared activities. When I was dating, I found far more success organically meeting people vs using apps, despite the fact that I ended up meeting my wife through an app. This doesn't just affect dating, it effects all sorts of relationships. We've decided somehow as a society to intermediate a screen between us and other people in nearly every single situation, and this form of communication is inherently lossy and biased towards appearances over realities, and it has caused a structural loss of community and the actual social skills in people necessary to meet and create connections. To look at our society as it currently sits, see the trend line of where it's going, and then to deride the people pointing it out as "incel type" seems deeply naive if not pernicious.
_yb2s 4y ago
I will second this. I am a late-30s recently divorced man, that got back on the dating 'market' about a year and a half ago after nearly two decades into a frustrating sexless marriage. I have a history of shyness/social anxiety, am very nerdy, balding, and struggle with weight issues- I am probably average or below average realistically. Yet I had a great time on Tinder- I was able to have sex with different women several times a week, and also found women would cold approach me at restaurants and in public places once I sorted myself out (see below). I am convinced the actual negative attitude that you can't get any interest is the major reason guys don't- this victim/complaining/entitled attitude is the most unattractive thing to women. Here are some of the things I did that worked for me: * Heavy strength/weight training 3-4x/week * Take the time to carefully build a Tinder profile that shows me having fun doing things I like (outdoor activities) but dressed well, with great lighting, etc. * Practice emotional vulnerability (read Mark Manson: Models), especially saying out loud to girls anything I was afraid to say, that I was worried would turn them off * Make really solid eye contact with women when talking and listening to them, in an even borderline creepy way - make them look away first * Stop trying to 'win approval' or entertain women but just try to have fun myself, and enjoy the conversations, and sex * Drive a 20+ year old 'exotic' sports car that looks impressive but cost less than most people spend annually on a smartphone, maintain it myself * Wear nice clothes, and develop my own unusual sense of style (shows confidence) * Intermittent fasting to keep weight somewhat under control * Have a lot of hobbies, friends, and activities that make it almost hard for interested women to schedule enough time with me- don't hang around them with nothing to do * Be confident in sharing my desires and interests, especially sexually (see vulnerability above) * Be willing to lower standards really low at first- have sex with whoever is interested, even if they are older or a bit overweight. As I built confidence and experience, I gradually was able to date more and more attractive women over time. * Live in a major metropolitan area with a lot of dating options. * Develop a mindset of abundance and self-esteem: realize the truth that I am the only guy these girls are likely to find that has my life together this well, and they are very lucky to get to go on a date with me despite my shortcomings Ultimately, I didn't find casual sex very fulfilling but really enjoy sex itself, with someone I have feelings for. I ended up deciding to enter a long term relationship with a girl from Tinder, and we have sex at least once a day, and are always pushing the limits and trying new things sexually.
MisterBastahrd 4y ago
You also just... don't have to do online dating. Go to a place that you're interested in being in and meet people there. If there are no women there, then you don't have to cancel that interest, but maybe it's not the thing to do to meet them. Save it for your bucket list of stuff you want to do when you've found someone but need some time away from the house.

BlargMcLarg 4y ago

I'm going to be real with you, this sounds similar to the "the job market isn't that bad, yes it's bad but I got a job right out of college" spiel bypassing evidence that many people send hundreds of job applications before they ever get a job. Studies show most people meet online. Studies show most people struggle in dating markets. These are not mutually exclusive. But unlike jobs, one doesn't need to date to live, even if having a partner is a major point of fulfillment to most.

lesstyzing 4y ago
I can see your comparison but I disagree. In a normal job market most people can come out of a college a get a job. It just might not be the flashy job they think they deserve. Maybe they have to wash dishes or stick shelves when they’re trained for something else. Dating is similar. You can get a date if you’re willing to compromise on looks. Some people just won’t even entertain that idea or won’t entertain the idea that they might have to aim even lower than they expected.
- BlargMcLarg 4y ago
  I hope I don't need to tell you why this comparison is incredibly flawed. If you treat dating the same way as jobhunting and your answer is "just get a dead end job", you're encouraging people to enter a lot of bad relationships and a lot of breaking hearts. Not to mention many people do not consider "just a date" a net positive, or even "just a date and sex". Beyond that, you still haven't addressed the elephant in the room: jobs are necessary to survive for most people, whereas celibacy doesn't kill.

wnolens 4y ago

This is my experience too. There's lots of nice people out there trying to meet. You just need to know what you want, be actually ready to take the leap, and are realistic about your value (sorry to phrase it like that but it IS a market)

lesstyzing 4y ago
Totally agree. If you’re struggling to succeed on dating apps you need to reassess your value. It sounds a bit horrible but better to be realistic and eventually happy, than to demonise the people who aren’t picking you and turn angry at the world.
- cholantesh 4y ago
  >If you’re struggling to succeed on dating apps you need to reassess your value Or at least your profile...
- asdswe 4y ago

bena 4y ago

There's also some very weird survivorship bias going on. Everyone you meet is the child of people who have sex. Even if they had the child via in vitro or adopted or whatever. Your parents fuck. So your parents fuck. Your friends' parents fuck. That asshole who bullies you in high school. Their parents fuck. It really does seem like everyone is fucking all the time. You live in a neighborhood where most people will also have kids. All those people? Fucking. You know what happens to people who don't fuck? They don't have families. You never get to really interact with them until you or your friends become those people later in life. And it makes you wonder why you aren't fucking because when you were growing up, it seemed like everyone was. But it was only a very specific subset of people that made up your circle.

wccrawford 4y ago
Not having kids doesn't mean they aren't having sex. It isn't only a "very specific subset" of any circle.
- bena 4y ago
  Right. But if you aren't having sex, you aren't having kids. Growing up, you grow up in family. You grow up around families. You grow up around a group of adults who have all had sex. The more you grow up and become independent and your circle deviates from those of your parents, the more likely it is you will start running into people who haven't had sex. Or don't have as many opportunities to do so. You may even become one of those people. You think they're rarer than they are because you grow up surrounded by people who have sex. People with kids is a very specific subset. So people like the article's author think people are having less sex when the reality is that he just knows more people who aren't having as much sex as his parents and their circle did.

havblue 4y ago

I think it partially depends on the app you use as well. You ultimately need to figure out what people are using in your region.

tristor 4y ago

I'm going to out myself a bit by making this comment, but I want to just say that you dismissing these comments as being "incel type" and saying that it's much ado about nothing is unfair and inaccurate. You are missing important context, and likely have a varied experience compared to these other people. I was a home-owner at 26, make an outsized income compared to both the national average and my local average, am well-traveled, educated, and by conventional standards am at average or slightly above average attractiveness. Despite all of this, I had an absolutely horrible time with dating until I was in my 30s. I am now married to a wonderful woman I met 5 years ago through a dating app, after years of frustration. The main thing I discovered in this journey is: 1. Older men (but not too old, 30s/40s) get better traction than younger men (teens, 20s), even if you are an outlier in success as a younger man 2. Women have a vastly different assessment of attractiveness than men do. There is TONS of data to support this, and it's basically incontrovertible at this point. I don't know if dating apps caused it, or it just revealed it, but women basically have a Pareto distribution of how they judge attractiveness. Only 20% of men pass the filter, the remaining 80% are never going to get a response. Men have a much more normal distribution (follows a bell curve) in how they view attractiveness. 3. The two things above mean that a (relatively) small number of men have success, and don't see the problem, while a (relatively) large amount of men are left out in the cold. You might think my 3 points above sound "incel type", yet I'm a married guy who absolutely supports the rights of women and their equality in society. This is not about politics, this is not about misogyny, this is not about frustration turning to anger. This is about the facts and the lived experience of millions of people, especially younger people, and how it drives societal trends. I watch many of friends who also work in tech struggling still even in their 30s because they are conventionally less attractive than I am, despite being better than me in other ways (smarter, more financially successful), and these are by the general standards of the day successful and stable people who cannot find a relationship. People who are farther down the income and intelligence curve struggle even further. This article didn't come out of nowhere, and this issue isn't only in the US. All over the OECD we are seeing falling birth rates, falling marriage rates, and self-reported reductions in sexual activity and relationships. What this means for society and our future, I don't know, but it will certainly mean a change of some kind. Sticking your head in the sand and deriding the people stating these things clearly does not do anything to understand or address this situation. If you personally faced no challenges in using online dating, then I would put forward that you are probably privileged in some way you don't realize and that your experience is unusual, rather than being the norm. One challenge many people haven't even mentioned yet in these comment threads is that online dating is fundamentally not a very good way to approach finding a relationship, and there is a different between "dating" for hookups and dating for finding a relationship. Most people are not satisfied with hookups, even when they can get them, and would prefer the more meaningful relationship. There are thankfully a few better apps in that direction, but as a general case an app is not a good basis for selecting someone to know on a deeper level, as apps emphasize the most shallow and curated view of people rather than the process of meeting people organically through shared activities. When I was dating, I found far more success organically meeting people vs using apps, despite the fact that I ended up meeting my wife through an app. This doesn't just affect dating, it effects all sorts of relationships. We've decided somehow as a society to intermediate a screen between us and other people in nearly every single situation, and this form of communication is inherently lossy and biased towards appearances over realities, and it has caused a structural loss of community and the actual social skills in people necessary to meet and create connections. To look at our society as it currently sits, see the trend line of where it's going, and then to deride the people pointing it out as "incel type" seems deeply naive if not pernicious.

_yb2s 4y ago

I will second this. I am a late-30s recently divorced man, that got back on the dating 'market' about a year and a half ago after nearly two decades into a frustrating sexless marriage. I have a history of shyness/social anxiety, am very nerdy, balding, and struggle with weight issues- I am probably average or below average realistically. Yet I had a great time on Tinder- I was able to have sex with different women several times a week, and also found women would cold approach me at restaurants and in public places once I sorted myself out (see below). I am convinced the actual negative attitude that you can't get any interest is the major reason guys don't- this victim/complaining/entitled attitude is the most unattractive thing to women. Here are some of the things I did that worked for me: * Heavy strength/weight training 3-4x/week * Take the time to carefully build a Tinder profile that shows me having fun doing things I like (outdoor activities) but dressed well, with great lighting, etc. * Practice emotional vulnerability (read Mark Manson: Models), especially saying out loud to girls anything I was afraid to say, that I was worried would turn them off * Make really solid eye contact with women when talking and listening to them, in an even borderline creepy way - make them look away first * Stop trying to 'win approval' or entertain women but just try to have fun myself, and enjoy the conversations, and sex * Drive a 20+ year old 'exotic' sports car that looks impressive but cost less than most people spend annually on a smartphone, maintain it myself * Wear nice clothes, and develop my own unusual sense of style (shows confidence) * Intermittent fasting to keep weight somewhat under control * Have a lot of hobbies, friends, and activities that make it almost hard for interested women to schedule enough time with me- don't hang around them with nothing to do * Be confident in sharing my desires and interests, especially sexually (see vulnerability above) * Be willing to lower standards really low at first- have sex with whoever is interested, even if they are older or a bit overweight. As I built confidence and experience, I gradually was able to date more and more attractive women over time. * Live in a major metropolitan area with a lot of dating options. * Develop a mindset of abundance and self-esteem: realize the truth that I am the only guy these girls are likely to find that has my life together this well, and they are very lucky to get to go on a date with me despite my shortcomings Ultimately, I didn't find casual sex very fulfilling but really enjoy sex itself, with someone I have feelings for. I ended up deciding to enter a long term relationship with a girl from Tinder, and we have sex at least once a day, and are always pushing the limits and trying new things sexually.

MisterBastahrd 4y ago

You also just... don't have to do online dating. Go to a place that you're interested in being in and meet people there. If there are no women there, then you don't have to cancel that interest, but maybe it's not the thing to do to meet them. Save it for your bucket list of stuff you want to do when you've found someone but need some time away from the house.