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This sounds nice, but the devil is in the details. My child applied to a school that had a similar policy that students would only graduate with $15k in studen

This sounds nice, but the devil is in the details. My child applied to a school that had a similar policy that students would only graduate with $15k in student loans. Tuition was $40k back when kid applied. We filled out financial aid package with my income of like $150k and no assets outside of retirement savings. We got a letter with “congrats total amount each year is $47k including room and board, work study is $1500, grant is $1500, expected parental contribution is $44k/year. You don’t need student loans.” It was really frustrating. So the wording on what financial contributions should be, like in this article, has lots of wiggle room. It seems Dartmouth is covering tuition for families making $65k or less. But a single year’s tuition is $60k, so good luck to families making $70k. I think these legacy universities don’t want to lower tuition because they still admit lots of rich people who just pay. But the middle class is really squeezed out. Of course the lower class is squeezed as well since it’s hard to get accepted if parents can’t afford tutors, coaches, etc.

InitialLastName 4y ago
There's a cynical take that the social function of the absolute elite universities is to allow young upper-class people (with family wealth and access to wealthy networks) to network with the smartest and most driven members of the middle- and lower classes (who will get things done). Presumably, the willingness of the family to make sacrifices for their child is a positive indicator for how driven the child will be.
- jseliger 4y ago
  Cynical, or merely descriptive? https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-the-fuck-do-you-trust-harvard https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-the-fuck-do-you-tru...
  - AtlasBarfed 4y ago
    Oh man that was a good read. Especially since you can MadLib the institution name and so many other parts of it.
999900000999 4y ago
Good catch. They use weasel words "Dartmouth is now removing the loan requirement for undergraduates from families with annual income of more than $125,000 who receive need-based financial aid." Most students coming from families earning 125k+ won't actually qualify for any aid. The entire financial aid system is broken. Have a domestic violence situation at home, so your parents don't want to fill your FASA out, no aid for you ! Still live with your supportive parents at 24, you automatically get the max amount. If I ran the world, I would give everyone aid for up to 6 years, and get rid of affirmative action completely. I'd argue the vast vast majority of students are better served going to a community college first. Figure out if college is even something you want to do , and if it is, get yourself a part-time job or better yet a full-time one so you understand how to manage money.
- stevetron 4y ago
  I went to a community college first. I also worked in my dad's business, sometimes behind the cash register. I've had my own consulting business, I think I know a little bit about 'handling money', and I don't consider myself particularly better served by that community college bit.
  - ekam 4y ago
    Also went to CC but I highly disagree, it was great saving two years of tuition costs
- rayiner 4y ago
  > Most students coming from families earning 125k+ won't actually qualify for any aid. Good?
  - deleted 4y ago
    [deleted]
  - kaesar14 4y ago
    75k a year of college is affordable for a household income of 150k? Really?
tablespoon 4y ago
> I think these legacy universities don’t want to lower tuition because they still admit lots of rich people who just pay. But the middle class is really squeezed out. Of course the lower class is squeezed as well since it’s hard to get accepted if parents can’t afford tutors, coaches, etc. IMHO, income from college endowments that are larger than one billion dollars should be taxed at 110%.
throwaway0a5e 4y ago
>It was really frustrating. So the wording on what financial contributions should be, like in this article, has lots of wiggle room. It seems Dartmouth is covering tuition for families making $65k or less. But a single year’s tuition is $60k, so good luck to families making $70k. That's the point. This is a non-change. They've always accepted a few poor people and dolled out scholarships under the unspoken guise of "economic diversity". If you don't fall into that category you either need to be rich or exceed the typical admissions requirements by enough to warrant an exception. The university is just patting itself on the back for something it's always been doing.
alphaomegacode 4y ago
Sadly, quite a lot of tuition seems to be supporting university employees who simply don't care. A friend of mine wanted to go to school after working for over a decade. She went to the University of Miami, got to the Continuing Education department and noticed not a single person on duty but a taped piece of paper saying everyone was working remotely due to CoVid. In 2022! Headed on to the location for Undergrad Admissions and was given a website where she could get more info. For a school that charges $65K+ a year. It happened again at a college in DC where all that she could get was a website versus speaking to an admissions counselor, getting a group tour on some particular date, etc. Even though about half of the university employees encountered were college students, their attitude of just cashing a paycheck and keeping the seats warm is both a cost and a reflection of the quality of administration. So much of University tuition now seems to be going to maintain salaries and perks for layers upon layers of employees and administrators versus student benefits.
- sumy23 4y ago
  I’ve noticed something similar at the company I work for and I think I have an explanation. Basically, upper management doesn’t understand what it takes to accomplish tasks anymore due to maligned incentives from middle management. Middle management wants to progress up the corporate ladder, which it does by growing its team size. E.g. by growing a team of 10 into a team of 100 with new layers of management below. This happens even if the scope of work remains largely unchanged. As a result, no one knows how many people it takes to accomplish tasks. There are so many people that ownership becomes and issue. People can simply pass the buck. And any sense of autonomy fades as more people are brought on to do a dwindling pool of actual work. The end result is large, inefficiently run bureaucracies.

InitialLastName 4y ago

There's a cynical take that the social function of the absolute elite universities is to allow young upper-class people (with family wealth and access to wealthy networks) to network with the smartest and most driven members of the middle- and lower classes (who will get things done). Presumably, the willingness of the family to make sacrifices for their child is a positive indicator for how driven the child will be.

jseliger 4y ago
Cynical, or merely descriptive? https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-the-fuck-do-you-trust-harvard https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/why-the-fuck-do-you-tru...
- AtlasBarfed 4y ago
  Oh man that was a good read. Especially since you can MadLib the institution name and so many other parts of it.

999900000999 4y ago

Good catch. They use weasel words "Dartmouth is now removing the loan requirement for undergraduates from families with annual income of more than $125,000 who receive need-based financial aid." Most students coming from families earning 125k+ won't actually qualify for any aid. The entire financial aid system is broken. Have a domestic violence situation at home, so your parents don't want to fill your FASA out, no aid for you ! Still live with your supportive parents at 24, you automatically get the max amount. If I ran the world, I would give everyone aid for up to 6 years, and get rid of affirmative action completely. I'd argue the vast vast majority of students are better served going to a community college first. Figure out if college is even something you want to do , and if it is, get yourself a part-time job or better yet a full-time one so you understand how to manage money.

stevetron 4y ago
I went to a community college first. I also worked in my dad's business, sometimes behind the cash register. I've had my own consulting business, I think I know a little bit about 'handling money', and I don't consider myself particularly better served by that community college bit.
- ekam 4y ago
  Also went to CC but I highly disagree, it was great saving two years of tuition costs
rayiner 4y ago
> Most students coming from families earning 125k+ won't actually qualify for any aid. Good?
- deleted 4y ago
  [deleted]
- kaesar14 4y ago
  75k a year of college is affordable for a household income of 150k? Really?

tablespoon 4y ago

> I think these legacy universities don’t want to lower tuition because they still admit lots of rich people who just pay. But the middle class is really squeezed out. Of course the lower class is squeezed as well since it’s hard to get accepted if parents can’t afford tutors, coaches, etc. IMHO, income from college endowments that are larger than one billion dollars should be taxed at 110%.

throwaway0a5e 4y ago

>It was really frustrating. So the wording on what financial contributions should be, like in this article, has lots of wiggle room. It seems Dartmouth is covering tuition for families making $65k or less. But a single year’s tuition is $60k, so good luck to families making $70k. That's the point. This is a non-change. They've always accepted a few poor people and dolled out scholarships under the unspoken guise of "economic diversity". If you don't fall into that category you either need to be rich or exceed the typical admissions requirements by enough to warrant an exception. The university is just patting itself on the back for something it's always been doing.

alphaomegacode 4y ago

Sadly, quite a lot of tuition seems to be supporting university employees who simply don't care. A friend of mine wanted to go to school after working for over a decade. She went to the University of Miami, got to the Continuing Education department and noticed not a single person on duty but a taped piece of paper saying everyone was working remotely due to CoVid. In 2022! Headed on to the location for Undergrad Admissions and was given a website where she could get more info. For a school that charges $65K+ a year. It happened again at a college in DC where all that she could get was a website versus speaking to an admissions counselor, getting a group tour on some particular date, etc. Even though about half of the university employees encountered were college students, their attitude of just cashing a paycheck and keeping the seats warm is both a cost and a reflection of the quality of administration. So much of University tuition now seems to be going to maintain salaries and perks for layers upon layers of employees and administrators versus student benefits.

sumy23 4y ago
I’ve noticed something similar at the company I work for and I think I have an explanation. Basically, upper management doesn’t understand what it takes to accomplish tasks anymore due to maligned incentives from middle management. Middle management wants to progress up the corporate ladder, which it does by growing its team size. E.g. by growing a team of 10 into a team of 100 with new layers of management below. This happens even if the scope of work remains largely unchanged. As a result, no one knows how many people it takes to accomplish tasks. There are so many people that ownership becomes and issue. People can simply pass the buck. And any sense of autonomy fades as more people are brought on to do a dwindling pool of actual work. The end result is large, inefficiently run bureaucracies.