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> Biological systems are ... chaotic Are they? Seems they are extraordinarily stable. Tortoises can last two centuries, that's not the signature of chaos. What

> Biological systems are ... chaotic Are they? Seems they are extraordinarily stable. Tortoises can last two centuries, that's not the signature of chaos. What do you mean by that word?

hprotagonist 4y ago
A good definition of chaos that certainly applies to biological systems: Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future. Lorenz
- zasdffaa 4y ago
  A dead tortoise is 100% going to be dead tomorrow. A tortoise alive now is 99.995% likely to be alive tomorrow, if external threats are removed. Pretty sure that is not the behaviour of chaos under your definition.
  - hprotagonist 4y ago
    “is this neuron going to spike and if it does can we say why” is, though. “if external threats are removed” is an attempt to linearize, and therefore remove chaotic behavior. Sometimes you can pull this off and have a reasonable model at the end; sometimes you cannot. This tells you more about your model than it does about the system you’re studying.
    - zasdffaa 4y ago
      Name me a stable system that does not become destroyed when an overwhelming amount of energy is applied to it. Is a tortoise with a stick of dynamite attached on a random timer chaotic or not? Seems yes. So what are the limits that define chaos? By that you could say all is chaotic. We lack a suitable definition here.
      - hprotagonist 4y ago
        "if i operate a linearized model outside of its linear range, i don't have the control systems tools I wish i did." Sure. So what?
  - nisegami 4y ago
    A triple pendulum at rest now will be at rest 1s from now. A triple pendulum moving now will likely be moving 1s from now. That doesn't mean that the triple pendulum isn't a chaotic system. It just shows the chaotic nature of the system doesn't manifest at the level of detail you're considering.
- spiderfarmer 4y ago
  So things that happen based on a predictable curve are chaotic as well?
Infinint 4y ago
Observing choas, one of the biggest hallmarks is its extreme stability. These systems always evade explanation and predictability at the smallest scales and build wild persistent structure at the largest. Chemical reactions are messy, but this one has been going for 4 billion years. We struggle to explain how even as high a scale as atoms can create the entire planet we see, let alone quantum fields, but understanding what it looks like just needed a few good thoughts about evolution. Life is the pinnacle of choas.

> Biological systems are ... chaotic Are they? Seems they are extraordinarily stable. Tortoises can last two centuries, that's not the signature of chaos. What do you mean by that word?

hprotagonist 4y ago

A good definition of chaos that certainly applies to biological systems: Chaos: When the present determines the future, but the approximate present does not approximately determine the future. Lorenz

zasdffaa 4y ago
A dead tortoise is 100% going to be dead tomorrow. A tortoise alive now is 99.995% likely to be alive tomorrow, if external threats are removed. Pretty sure that is not the behaviour of chaos under your definition.
- hprotagonist 4y ago
  “is this neuron going to spike and if it does can we say why” is, though. “if external threats are removed” is an attempt to linearize, and therefore remove chaotic behavior. Sometimes you can pull this off and have a reasonable model at the end; sometimes you cannot. This tells you more about your model than it does about the system you’re studying.
  - zasdffaa 4y ago
    Name me a stable system that does not become destroyed when an overwhelming amount of energy is applied to it. Is a tortoise with a stick of dynamite attached on a random timer chaotic or not? Seems yes. So what are the limits that define chaos? By that you could say all is chaotic. We lack a suitable definition here.
    - hprotagonist 4y ago
      "if i operate a linearized model outside of its linear range, i don't have the control systems tools I wish i did." Sure. So what?
- nisegami 4y ago
  A triple pendulum at rest now will be at rest 1s from now. A triple pendulum moving now will likely be moving 1s from now. That doesn't mean that the triple pendulum isn't a chaotic system. It just shows the chaotic nature of the system doesn't manifest at the level of detail you're considering.
spiderfarmer 4y ago
So things that happen based on a predictable curve are chaotic as well?

Infinint 4y ago

Observing choas, one of the biggest hallmarks is its extreme stability. These systems always evade explanation and predictability at the smallest scales and build wild persistent structure at the largest. Chemical reactions are messy, but this one has been going for 4 billion years. We struggle to explain how even as high a scale as atoms can create the entire planet we see, let alone quantum fields, but understanding what it looks like just needed a few good thoughts about evolution. Life is the pinnacle of choas.