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The article doesn't seem to mention (although perhaps the book does) the role technology likely plays in the story. Not that long ago (relatively speaking) if y

The article doesn't seem to mention (although perhaps the book does) the role technology likely plays in the story. Not that long ago (relatively speaking) if you wanted to hear music, someone had to be performing it. With the advent of records and radio broadcasts that sounded half-way decent, not only did you not have to go to a theater to hear orchestra music, you could listen to it all day long. That no doubt changed the desires and expectations of potential theater patrons. It also means if you're creating music with profits in mind, you're better off aiming at something other than the local symphony, such as accompaniment to other media (film, video games), or selling albums, concert tickets, etc. (If you want melodic, harmonic orchestral music more in the vein of "classical" music, I think it's today primarily found in film music, where there is a rich abundance of it.) In other words, technology changed the entire cultural experience and business of music. I think the advent of photography perhaps had similar effects in the visual arts, as perhaps did automobiles with architecture (although maybe that one's a bit more of a stretch). The internet is continuing to change it, and the advent of AI will likely continue to morph it further. ETA: Whenever I see twelve-tone music mentioned, I can't help but think of this classic commercial: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACCAF04wSs

Earw0rm 4y ago
And to any classical snobs on a "technology = bad" tangent, Perhaps consider that a concert hall filled with a couple of hundred instruments built to a standard tuning, the materials and techniques involved, and the sheet music notation system used to reproduce works and train the players, was absolute pinnacle, state-of-the-art technology in the early 18th century. As in, only the military had greater ability to deploy the latest materials, precision manufacturing techniques and information technology etc. at the scale required. The symphony orchestra and the music written for it was a product of the social and technological circumstances of its time, every bit as much as the LP & CD album format (which is also, sadly, looking increasingly obsolescent this last decade or so).
- annyeonghada 4y ago
  Incredible how you thought of singling out the "classical snobs" who, for the most part, enjoy listening their operas on youtube and not all the critics snob who, in fact, enjoy tearing down everything that has a semblance of beauty and assonance. Maybe reflect on your animosity: Why are you so angry at "classical snobs"?
nescioquid 4y ago
> With the advent of records and radio broadcasts that sounded half-way decent, not only did you not have to go to a theater to hear orchestra music, you could listen to it all day long. Schoenberg writes in one of his essays, that the general audience at an orchestra concert in Vienna in the late 19th century, had a fairly sophisticated set of expectations about music -- they understood sonata form, e.g. and could follow along, could recall and even sing or whistle the themes a few days later. Did radio and recordings change this because now you don't have to listen quite as closely -- rewind or wait for the next broadcast? Or does it simply become something you don't really listen to at all, but rather take as a drug to get ready for the night out or get into a work groove? I don't deny my bias towards listening to music, nor do I reject other modalities. A critique of MIDI is that is is optimized for keyboard instrument input with the result that the sort of music you are funneled to make with MIDI is the sort than can be rendered by keyboard. Presumably most working musicians were more interested in continuing with the keyboard-ready music they have been playing their entire lives, so here the technology clearly followed. On the other hand, I've wondered whether the duration of popular music songs was pegged to 2-3 minutes by convention due to an early popular record format that could support 2-3 minutes a side. I'm sure someone's written convincingly one way or the other on the matter, but I don't know, so take it with a grain of salt. BTW, hadn't seen that "commercial" for the second Viennese school and got a kick out of it. Has anyone done the same schtick for be-bop? (Love them both) EDIT: just recalling the other half of that MIDI critique -- it was commercial interest in following a market that lead to the technology, rather than being artistically-driven à la a Verèse.
- WalterBright 4y ago
  > A critique of MIDI is that is is optimized for keyboard instrument input with the result that the sort of music you are funneled to make with MIDI is the sort than can be rendered by keyboard. Isn't that true of any instrument? They're all limited by the nature of their interface to the musician.
  - nescioquid 4y ago
    Excellent point! In the context of early electronic music (thinking of Varèse), there was a sort of resentment for the fact a composer was limited to working with the sort of sounds that can be "drawn from horse hair and catgut" or by an octave divided in twelve or any instrument other than the composer's imagination. That's how I understood the criticism (which was also voiced in an academic context).

Earw0rm 4y ago

And to any classical snobs on a "technology = bad" tangent, Perhaps consider that a concert hall filled with a couple of hundred instruments built to a standard tuning, the materials and techniques involved, and the sheet music notation system used to reproduce works and train the players, was absolute pinnacle, state-of-the-art technology in the early 18th century. As in, only the military had greater ability to deploy the latest materials, precision manufacturing techniques and information technology etc. at the scale required. The symphony orchestra and the music written for it was a product of the social and technological circumstances of its time, every bit as much as the LP & CD album format (which is also, sadly, looking increasingly obsolescent this last decade or so).

annyeonghada 4y ago
Incredible how you thought of singling out the "classical snobs" who, for the most part, enjoy listening their operas on youtube and not all the critics snob who, in fact, enjoy tearing down everything that has a semblance of beauty and assonance. Maybe reflect on your animosity: Why are you so angry at "classical snobs"?

nescioquid 4y ago

> With the advent of records and radio broadcasts that sounded half-way decent, not only did you not have to go to a theater to hear orchestra music, you could listen to it all day long. Schoenberg writes in one of his essays, that the general audience at an orchestra concert in Vienna in the late 19th century, had a fairly sophisticated set of expectations about music -- they understood sonata form, e.g. and could follow along, could recall and even sing or whistle the themes a few days later. Did radio and recordings change this because now you don't have to listen quite as closely -- rewind or wait for the next broadcast? Or does it simply become something you don't really listen to at all, but rather take as a drug to get ready for the night out or get into a work groove? I don't deny my bias towards listening to music, nor do I reject other modalities. A critique of MIDI is that is is optimized for keyboard instrument input with the result that the sort of music you are funneled to make with MIDI is the sort than can be rendered by keyboard. Presumably most working musicians were more interested in continuing with the keyboard-ready music they have been playing their entire lives, so here the technology clearly followed. On the other hand, I've wondered whether the duration of popular music songs was pegged to 2-3 minutes by convention due to an early popular record format that could support 2-3 minutes a side. I'm sure someone's written convincingly one way or the other on the matter, but I don't know, so take it with a grain of salt. BTW, hadn't seen that "commercial" for the second Viennese school and got a kick out of it. Has anyone done the same schtick for be-bop? (Love them both) EDIT: just recalling the other half of that MIDI critique -- it was commercial interest in following a market that lead to the technology, rather than being artistically-driven à la a Verèse.

WalterBright 4y ago
> A critique of MIDI is that is is optimized for keyboard instrument input with the result that the sort of music you are funneled to make with MIDI is the sort than can be rendered by keyboard. Isn't that true of any instrument? They're all limited by the nature of their interface to the musician.
- nescioquid 4y ago
  Excellent point! In the context of early electronic music (thinking of Varèse), there was a sort of resentment for the fact a composer was limited to working with the sort of sounds that can be "drawn from horse hair and catgut" or by an octave divided in twelve or any instrument other than the composer's imagination. That's how I understood the criticism (which was also voiced in an academic context).