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I’m extremely deep in this space, so I will provide some more anecdotes. A lot of the Chinese crypto engineers (of which there are many) are paid in USDT. This

I’m extremely deep in this space, so I will provide some more anecdotes. A lot of the Chinese crypto engineers (of which there are many) are paid in USDT. This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has. There is an entire subculture of Chinese who operate their businesses in USDT, mostly digital ones but it has bled into the physical world as well. In Hong Kong duffel bags full of paper currency would be swapped for USDT by various money changers. A lot of people look at crypto and see what’s on the surface. The easy, instant movement of essentially unlimited money without government oversight and intervention is scaring many authoritarian governments. See the total ban on crypto by the Chinese dictatorship.

dmitriid 4y ago
> This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has So. Illegal movement of money.
- seibelj 4y ago
  The Chinese government has committed horrible atrocities. The US government to this day has people locked for life in prison because they sold marijuana for the third time and were sentenced to life. Prior governments worldwide sanctioned human slavery and collected taxes on slave sales. You say illegal - but I say immoral
  - spupe 4y ago
    What a ridiculous argument for tax evasion. Your tax money also supports elderly care, orphanages and a range of essential services that you have already benefited from. What you are doing is immoral - freeloading.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      I didn’t realize promoting free speech, which would get you arrested and potentially murdered in China, meant you were an immoral person. But with absolute government control over the payment rails, such activism is impossible without a sword over your neck.
      - anon2020dot00 4y ago
        Aren't North Korean Hackers using crypto for ransomware? So actually, crypto is used to finance and prop-up such dictatorial governments. Also, Russia is being sanctioned through freezing their USD accounts and imposing financial sanctions such as suspension from using SWIFT. If crypto is more wide-spread, then it will become more difficult to impose such financial restrictions to Russia and other international pariahs.
        seibelj 4y ago
        Aren't drug dealers in the US and Europe using paper currency? Shouldn't we outlaw that so the government can track everything?
        anon2020dot00 4y ago
        The previous argument was that crypto will be a bane to authoritarian governments; I'm just pointing out that crypto can also assist authoritarian governments. I never said to outlaw crypto or paper currency but I just brought-up that crypto is just a tool that can be used against and for such governments.
        dubswithus 4y ago
        Yeah, North Korean hackers steal money on the internet. You are right about that.
  - aforwardslash 4y ago
    I'm quite far from defending the chinese government,but your whole thread seems to be an incentive for tax evasion "because the government commits horrible atrocities". Governments are not "moral" or "immoral" - they are amoral. Their purpose (when they are good) isn't to improve conditions for everyone, just their citizens. And if that comes at a cost to other citizens in other countries, they are still within their mission's scope. Projecting your own opinion on morality or legitimacy doesn't change the fact that taxes need to be paid, and in fact dictatorial regimes tend to frown upon tax evasion, so your opinion may also contribute to the increase of "people locked for life" just because they took you seriously. So, in some way, these stances actually contribute to the worsening of the issue.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      The reason someone in Vietnam, China, or any other country with terrible government would dare dream of being paid to do graphic design without the government tracking such a payment is not simply about tax evasion. You might be helping to promote abortion. Or gay rights. Or liberal democracy. There are innumerable reasons why someone in an authoritarian regime would prefer to earn a living outside the political apparatus, which in the current official monetary system is impossible.
      - aforwardslash 4y ago
        "You might be helping to promote abortion. Or gay rights. Or liberal democracy." - right, because eg. abortion is illegal only on "authoritarian regimes". So basically, we're back to the initial argument - cryptocurrencies are good to sponsor criminal/illegal activities - being promoting democracy values on authoritarian regimes or moving money around in human slave trafficking...
    - eldenwrong 4y ago
      - aforwardslash 4y ago
        There is nothing worse than someone who lacks critical thinking. If you support promoting widespread criminal activities because brutal regimes like China exists, there is no distinction between you and a totalitarian regime - you both think YOUR vision is the right one, without space for tolerance or plurality of opinions. Imagine that.
  - meheleventyone 4y ago
    It’s highly unlikely the people facilitating illegal money movement and exchange are morally clean which seems to be your criteria here.
- Grimburger 4y ago
  > Illegal movement of money Which covers use-cases like sending money for medicine to your sick grandmother in Iran. Not all laws are just and a world were no laws could be broken would be a nightmare.
hnaccount_rng 4y ago
And what do those people do to interact with their local community. Eg how do they pay their supermarket bill? Their taxes? (Well I guess they will conveniently forget about income taxes.) That’s what the involvement if a central bank/state gives you.
deleted 4y ago
[deleted]

dmitriid 4y ago

> This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has So. Illegal movement of money.

seibelj 4y ago
The Chinese government has committed horrible atrocities. The US government to this day has people locked for life in prison because they sold marijuana for the third time and were sentenced to life. Prior governments worldwide sanctioned human slavery and collected taxes on slave sales. You say illegal - but I say immoral
- spupe 4y ago
  What a ridiculous argument for tax evasion. Your tax money also supports elderly care, orphanages and a range of essential services that you have already benefited from. What you are doing is immoral - freeloading.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    I didn’t realize promoting free speech, which would get you arrested and potentially murdered in China, meant you were an immoral person. But with absolute government control over the payment rails, such activism is impossible without a sword over your neck.
    - anon2020dot00 4y ago
      Aren't North Korean Hackers using crypto for ransomware? So actually, crypto is used to finance and prop-up such dictatorial governments. Also, Russia is being sanctioned through freezing their USD accounts and imposing financial sanctions such as suspension from using SWIFT. If crypto is more wide-spread, then it will become more difficult to impose such financial restrictions to Russia and other international pariahs.
      - seibelj 4y ago
        Aren't drug dealers in the US and Europe using paper currency? Shouldn't we outlaw that so the government can track everything?
        anon2020dot00 4y ago
        The previous argument was that crypto will be a bane to authoritarian governments; I'm just pointing out that crypto can also assist authoritarian governments. I never said to outlaw crypto or paper currency but I just brought-up that crypto is just a tool that can be used against and for such governments.
      - dubswithus 4y ago
        Yeah, North Korean hackers steal money on the internet. You are right about that.
- aforwardslash 4y ago
  I'm quite far from defending the chinese government,but your whole thread seems to be an incentive for tax evasion "because the government commits horrible atrocities". Governments are not "moral" or "immoral" - they are amoral. Their purpose (when they are good) isn't to improve conditions for everyone, just their citizens. And if that comes at a cost to other citizens in other countries, they are still within their mission's scope. Projecting your own opinion on morality or legitimacy doesn't change the fact that taxes need to be paid, and in fact dictatorial regimes tend to frown upon tax evasion, so your opinion may also contribute to the increase of "people locked for life" just because they took you seriously. So, in some way, these stances actually contribute to the worsening of the issue.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    The reason someone in Vietnam, China, or any other country with terrible government would dare dream of being paid to do graphic design without the government tracking such a payment is not simply about tax evasion. You might be helping to promote abortion. Or gay rights. Or liberal democracy. There are innumerable reasons why someone in an authoritarian regime would prefer to earn a living outside the political apparatus, which in the current official monetary system is impossible.
    - aforwardslash 4y ago
      "You might be helping to promote abortion. Or gay rights. Or liberal democracy." - right, because eg. abortion is illegal only on "authoritarian regimes". So basically, we're back to the initial argument - cryptocurrencies are good to sponsor criminal/illegal activities - being promoting democracy values on authoritarian regimes or moving money around in human slave trafficking...
  - eldenwrong 4y ago
    - aforwardslash 4y ago
      There is nothing worse than someone who lacks critical thinking. If you support promoting widespread criminal activities because brutal regimes like China exists, there is no distinction between you and a totalitarian regime - you both think YOUR vision is the right one, without space for tolerance or plurality of opinions. Imagine that.
- meheleventyone 4y ago
  It’s highly unlikely the people facilitating illegal money movement and exchange are morally clean which seems to be your criteria here.
Grimburger 4y ago
> Illegal movement of money Which covers use-cases like sending money for medicine to your sick grandmother in Iran. Not all laws are just and a world were no laws could be broken would be a nightmare.

hnaccount_rng 4y ago

And what do those people do to interact with their local community. Eg how do they pay their supermarket bill? Their taxes? (Well I guess they will conveniently forget about income taxes.) That’s what the involvement if a central bank/state gives you.

deleted 4y ago

[deleted]