4 ms·

You only need society and weapons and as it turns out, the thing we build most is societies with the intent of providing for our posterity, closely closely seco

by SllX 4y ago

You only need society and weapons and as it turns out, the thing we build most is societies with the intent of providing for our posterity, closely closely seconded by weapons. The absence of the State as we know it isn’t the absence of private property. If you want to imagine life without the State but with modern technology, try something more akin to a cross between Europe in the Middle Ages and drug cartels. I think Neal Stephenson wrote a book about it, but in any case private property rights are recognized by the State by custom (or “common law” if you prefer), not derived from the State, even though they can be deprived from you by the State by due process per the compromises we made in our Constitutional order.

yellowapple 4y ago
> The absence of the State as we know it isn’t the absence of private property. Yes it is. Any attempt to enforce private property ownership itself entails the attempted creation of a monopoly of violence in respect to that land - also known as "a state". > try something more akin to a cross between Europe in the Middle Ages and drug cartels Both feudal lordships and drug cartels (well, the ones that are actually worth fearing, at least) entail the creation and enforcement of a monopoly of violence over a given geographic area (a.k.a. "land"). That would make them states. They collect(ed) taxes, they raise(d) armies, and they generally control(led) the local populace under threat of violence. The latter case is only exceptional due to it competing with another state over control of a given geographic area; that hardly precludes a cartel from being a state, for the same reason that two states at war continue to be states even when they're being invaded by each other. > private property rights are recognized by the State by custom (or “common law” if you prefer), not derived from the State, even though they can be deprived from you by the State by due process per the compromises we made in our Constitutional order. If the State can deprive you of your "private" property, then how does that not in and of itself demonstrate rather plainly that the State is the thing from which said property derives? By what authority do you get to claim a piece of land as your own except with the State giving you a piece of paper saying it's yours?
- SllX 4y ago
  That’s a very expansive view of a state. So in that case would a drug cartel that excludes the government from enforcing its sovereignty over a piece of land be recognizable as a state? I won’t argue, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest to you that maybe while a fiefdom could in modern parlance be considered a “state” if it were large enough or managed to make it into the present day with internationally recognized borders (like Liechtenstein), not all fiefdoms were states. I’ve made that mistake too so I won’t knock you for it, but a State as you and I know it is a very very recent invention that entails a bit more than Capitol Hill in lieu of a lord. France prior to their revolution and France post-Napoleon provide the starkest contrast between a feudal Kingdom and a State (in both Kingdom and Republic flavors because they’re restless like that). > If the State can deprive you of your "private" property, then how does that not in and of itself demonstrate rather plainly that the State is the thing from which said property derives? By what authority do you get to claim a piece of land as your own except with the State giving you a piece of paper saying it's yours? Well you dropped the due process provision I put in there. Did you know for example that Bills of Attainder are illegal under the Constitution? This would be a legislative instrument where a parliamentary body can simply vote to declare someone guilty of a crime, and simply take their property and even life by majority vote. Those have existed at various points in time, but they are off-limits to Congress (and the States too). But also a title is not just a piece of paper from the State. Think of a title as a record or evidence of the transaction. It is the agreement between buyer and seller that transfers property rights over a piece of land between two parties, but there isn’t a step where the State steps in and says “I approve this transfer”. The contract is between two parties, not two parties plus the State (unless the State is actually one of the parties to the transaction). Where did the buyer get the rights from? There’s a record of that too, and the State’s role is to keep a record. Maybe it was originally a State grant, but the State forfeited it’s rights with the transfer. That said, yes, there are ways for the state to take property, so long as due process is followed. This might follow a criminal conviction, or maybe someone died without next of kin and it was determined there was no one to inherit the land, or it was debt collateral, or it was compensated for after an eminent domain action. It isn’t arbitrary.
  - yellowapple 4y ago

by SllX 4y ago

yellowapple 4y ago

> The absence of the State as we know it isn’t the absence of private property. Yes it is. Any attempt to enforce private property ownership itself entails the attempted creation of a monopoly of violence in respect to that land - also known as "a state". > try something more akin to a cross between Europe in the Middle Ages and drug cartels Both feudal lordships and drug cartels (well, the ones that are actually worth fearing, at least) entail the creation and enforcement of a monopoly of violence over a given geographic area (a.k.a. "land"). That would make them states. They collect(ed) taxes, they raise(d) armies, and they generally control(led) the local populace under threat of violence. The latter case is only exceptional due to it competing with another state over control of a given geographic area; that hardly precludes a cartel from being a state, for the same reason that two states at war continue to be states even when they're being invaded by each other. > private property rights are recognized by the State by custom (or “common law” if you prefer), not derived from the State, even though they can be deprived from you by the State by due process per the compromises we made in our Constitutional order. If the State can deprive you of your "private" property, then how does that not in and of itself demonstrate rather plainly that the State is the thing from which said property derives? By what authority do you get to claim a piece of land as your own except with the State giving you a piece of paper saying it's yours?

SllX 4y ago
That’s a very expansive view of a state. So in that case would a drug cartel that excludes the government from enforcing its sovereignty over a piece of land be recognizable as a state? I won’t argue, but I’m going to go out on a limb and suggest to you that maybe while a fiefdom could in modern parlance be considered a “state” if it were large enough or managed to make it into the present day with internationally recognized borders (like Liechtenstein), not all fiefdoms were states. I’ve made that mistake too so I won’t knock you for it, but a State as you and I know it is a very very recent invention that entails a bit more than Capitol Hill in lieu of a lord. France prior to their revolution and France post-Napoleon provide the starkest contrast between a feudal Kingdom and a State (in both Kingdom and Republic flavors because they’re restless like that). > If the State can deprive you of your "private" property, then how does that not in and of itself demonstrate rather plainly that the State is the thing from which said property derives? By what authority do you get to claim a piece of land as your own except with the State giving you a piece of paper saying it's yours? Well you dropped the due process provision I put in there. Did you know for example that Bills of Attainder are illegal under the Constitution? This would be a legislative instrument where a parliamentary body can simply vote to declare someone guilty of a crime, and simply take their property and even life by majority vote. Those have existed at various points in time, but they are off-limits to Congress (and the States too). But also a title is not just a piece of paper from the State. Think of a title as a record or evidence of the transaction. It is the agreement between buyer and seller that transfers property rights over a piece of land between two parties, but there isn’t a step where the State steps in and says “I approve this transfer”. The contract is between two parties, not two parties plus the State (unless the State is actually one of the parties to the transaction). Where did the buyer get the rights from? There’s a record of that too, and the State’s role is to keep a record. Maybe it was originally a State grant, but the State forfeited it’s rights with the transfer. That said, yes, there are ways for the state to take property, so long as due process is followed. This might follow a criminal conviction, or maybe someone died without next of kin and it was determined there was no one to inherit the land, or it was debt collateral, or it was compensated for after an eminent domain action. It isn’t arbitrary.
- yellowapple 4y ago