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He misses the two main use cases, and the two things that crypto are used for that dwarfs everything else. A) it's a great speculative asset. Huge volatility i

He misses the two main use cases, and the two things that crypto are used for that dwarfs everything else. A) it's a great speculative asset. Huge volatility in value means fortunes can be made (and lost) in days not lifetimes. All those crypto ads on the radio talk about "investing" in Bitcoin - marketing it as an asset, not about using it as currency. It appears to be a zero sum game. I'll make no judgement about its actual value as an asset. B) it makes illegal transactions safer by removing the need to be physically present to receive cash. This simplifies things like drug deals, and of course with digital goods makes things like ransomware possible. Crypto already has two killer apps, it's just not the killer apps they wanted it to be.

seibelj 4y ago
I paid a contractor in Vietnam to do a side project for me once in a stablecoin. Because it avoided the central bank, they could avoid the stealing of their hard currency via the standard international payment system. One beneficial use case from the US perspective is further global dominance of USD (if you are into that sort of thing). This limits the ability of corrupt governments from inflating their fiat, which is generally a worse currency than USD fiat.
- hiq 4y ago
  > Because it avoided the central bank, they could avoid the stealing of their hard currency via the standard international payment system. How much was paid in fees in total, from your currency to theirs (I assume VND)? If it's a USD stablecoin, I assume they still had to convert it to VND, or at least they'd have to if they were paid mostly like this (to pay their taxes). Wise and others are quite cheap for the currencies they support.
  - seibelj 4y ago
    I’m extremely deep in this space, so I will provide some more anecdotes. A lot of the Chinese crypto engineers (of which there are many) are paid in USDT. This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has. There is an entire subculture of Chinese who operate their businesses in USDT, mostly digital ones but it has bled into the physical world as well. In Hong Kong duffel bags full of paper currency would be swapped for USDT by various money changers. A lot of people look at crypto and see what’s on the surface. The easy, instant movement of essentially unlimited money without government oversight and intervention is scaring many authoritarian governments. See the total ban on crypto by the Chinese dictatorship.
    - dmitriid 4y ago
      > This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has So. Illegal movement of money.
      - seibelj 4y ago
        The Chinese government has committed horrible atrocities. The US government to this day has people locked for life in prison because they sold marijuana for the third time and were sentenced to life. Prior governments worldwide sanctioned human slavery and collected taxes on slave sales. You say illegal - but I say immoral
        spupe 4y ago
        What a ridiculous argument for tax evasion. Your tax money also supports elderly care, orphanages and a range of essential services that you have already benefited from. What you are doing is immoral - freeloading.
        seibelj 4y ago
        I didn’t realize promoting free speech, which would get you arrested and potentially murdered in China, meant you were an immoral person. But with absolute government control over the payment rails, such activism is impossible without a sword over your neck.
        anon2020dot00 4y ago
        Aren't North Korean Hackers using crypto for ransomware? So actually, crypto is used to finance and prop-up such dictatorial governments. Also, Russia is being sanctioned through freezing their USD accounts and imposing financial sanctions such as suspension from using SWIFT. If crypto is more wide-spread, then it will become more difficult to impose such financial restrictions to Russia and other international pariahs.
        4y ago
CaptainZapp 4y ago
Case A can also be achieved with straight forward gambling. I agree that the second case, illegal transactions in any form, is the only real killer app for crypto.
WatchDog 4y ago
Adding to B, it's also great for money laundering and avoiding sanctions. If you are a Russian oligarch, it's great for being able to pay your superyacht crew.
- cowtools 4y ago
  I suppose, but is it that much better than cash?
  - maccard 4y ago
    I guess that depends. Would you accept payment in rubles right now?
wokwokwok 4y ago
Yep, this. "useful" and "no use case" are not the same thing. Clearly anyone who isn't completely blind can see that you can use crypto for some things. It's pretty easy to demolish the strawman that is 'there is nothing to can use that for'. ...but given that technically it's like an unregulated, very slow, very expensive payment system, it's far harder to swallow the idea that it has compelling use cases, by which I mean, "I would be convinced to use this" unless: - you are doing something that is illegal - you're doing something traditional payment providers don't allow - you want to avoid taxes / tariffs (see, doing something illegal) - you want to avoid the red tape to do something (eg. banking, coin offering) - you're speculating Otherwise, you can just using something else, that is faster, simpler, cheaper and safer (ie. legal protections, etc.). Many of the 'novel' ideas in crypto like asserting ownership via NFTs, smart contracts, etc. are not fundamentally restricted to crypto; you could run them centralized, and it would make almost no difference at all. You'd still have a CoinSpace wallet that you convert USD to CoinTokens on, and upload your smart contracts to. The crypto part of this is not compelling, it's just a pain in the ass to deal with, technically, and commercially toxic by association with bad actors. On top of that, the crypto is fundamentally worthless unless you have people who want to buy it, so it is in bad faith that most crypto proponents advocate for it; it is in their interests, not yours, to be involved with it.
- dubswithus 4y ago
  > - you want to avoid taxes / tariffs (see, doing something illegal) Which is basically impossible. It's a distributed ledger and the IRS has chain analysis software. > - you're doing something traditional payment providers don't allow So no one has ever complained about Paypal? Seems to be a recurring theme on HN. > - you're speculating Which is exactly about Y Combinator is about? I personally think Uber and Facebook are scams. Uber ignored regulation and started its business without getting permission. Facebook tries to convince young people to spend more of their time doing worthless things. And yet a lot of people here are being paid big bucks by these companies and loving it! The modern internet is just a cess pool. Crypto skeptics want us to believe that everything else on the internet that came before it has a purpose and is justified. But really the modern internet is making society worse.

seibelj 4y ago

I paid a contractor in Vietnam to do a side project for me once in a stablecoin. Because it avoided the central bank, they could avoid the stealing of their hard currency via the standard international payment system. One beneficial use case from the US perspective is further global dominance of USD (if you are into that sort of thing). This limits the ability of corrupt governments from inflating their fiat, which is generally a worse currency than USD fiat.

hiq 4y ago
> Because it avoided the central bank, they could avoid the stealing of their hard currency via the standard international payment system. How much was paid in fees in total, from your currency to theirs (I assume VND)? If it's a USD stablecoin, I assume they still had to convert it to VND, or at least they'd have to if they were paid mostly like this (to pay their taxes). Wise and others are quite cheap for the currencies they support.
- seibelj 4y ago
  I’m extremely deep in this space, so I will provide some more anecdotes. A lot of the Chinese crypto engineers (of which there are many) are paid in USDT. This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has. There is an entire subculture of Chinese who operate their businesses in USDT, mostly digital ones but it has bled into the physical world as well. In Hong Kong duffel bags full of paper currency would be swapped for USDT by various money changers. A lot of people look at crypto and see what’s on the surface. The easy, instant movement of essentially unlimited money without government oversight and intervention is scaring many authoritarian governments. See the total ban on crypto by the Chinese dictatorship.
  - dmitriid 4y ago
    > This avoids all of the capital controls and knowledge the state has So. Illegal movement of money.
    - seibelj 4y ago
      The Chinese government has committed horrible atrocities. The US government to this day has people locked for life in prison because they sold marijuana for the third time and were sentenced to life. Prior governments worldwide sanctioned human slavery and collected taxes on slave sales. You say illegal - but I say immoral
      - spupe 4y ago
        What a ridiculous argument for tax evasion. Your tax money also supports elderly care, orphanages and a range of essential services that you have already benefited from. What you are doing is immoral - freeloading.
        seibelj 4y ago
        I didn’t realize promoting free speech, which would get you arrested and potentially murdered in China, meant you were an immoral person. But with absolute government control over the payment rails, such activism is impossible without a sword over your neck.
        anon2020dot00 4y ago
        Aren't North Korean Hackers using crypto for ransomware? So actually, crypto is used to finance and prop-up such dictatorial governments. Also, Russia is being sanctioned through freezing their USD accounts and imposing financial sanctions such as suspension from using SWIFT. If crypto is more wide-spread, then it will become more difficult to impose such financial restrictions to Russia and other international pariahs.
        4y ago

CaptainZapp 4y ago

Case A can also be achieved with straight forward gambling. I agree that the second case, illegal transactions in any form, is the only real killer app for crypto.

WatchDog 4y ago

Adding to B, it's also great for money laundering and avoiding sanctions. If you are a Russian oligarch, it's great for being able to pay your superyacht crew.

cowtools 4y ago
I suppose, but is it that much better than cash?
- maccard 4y ago
  I guess that depends. Would you accept payment in rubles right now?

wokwokwok 4y ago

Yep, this. "useful" and "no use case" are not the same thing. Clearly anyone who isn't completely blind can see that you can use crypto for some things. It's pretty easy to demolish the strawman that is 'there is nothing to can use that for'. ...but given that technically it's like an unregulated, very slow, very expensive payment system, it's far harder to swallow the idea that it has compelling use cases, by which I mean, "I would be convinced to use this" unless: - you are doing something that is illegal - you're doing something traditional payment providers don't allow - you want to avoid taxes / tariffs (see, doing something illegal) - you want to avoid the red tape to do something (eg. banking, coin offering) - you're speculating Otherwise, you can just using something else, that is faster, simpler, cheaper and safer (ie. legal protections, etc.). Many of the 'novel' ideas in crypto like asserting ownership via NFTs, smart contracts, etc. are not fundamentally restricted to crypto; you could run them centralized, and it would make almost no difference at all. You'd still have a CoinSpace wallet that you convert USD to CoinTokens on, and upload your smart contracts to. The crypto part of this is not compelling, it's just a pain in the ass to deal with, technically, and commercially toxic by association with bad actors. On top of that, the crypto is fundamentally worthless unless you have people who want to buy it, so it is in bad faith that most crypto proponents advocate for it; it is in their interests, not yours, to be involved with it.

dubswithus 4y ago
> - you want to avoid taxes / tariffs (see, doing something illegal) Which is basically impossible. It's a distributed ledger and the IRS has chain analysis software. > - you're doing something traditional payment providers don't allow So no one has ever complained about Paypal? Seems to be a recurring theme on HN. > - you're speculating Which is exactly about Y Combinator is about? I personally think Uber and Facebook are scams. Uber ignored regulation and started its business without getting permission. Facebook tries to convince young people to spend more of their time doing worthless things. And yet a lot of people here are being paid big bucks by these companies and loving it! The modern internet is just a cess pool. Crypto skeptics want us to believe that everything else on the internet that came before it has a purpose and is justified. But really the modern internet is making society worse.