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This is not directed at you, but rather at the poor hiring practices that have permeated the software industry for too long. We've been gaslighted into acceptin

This is not directed at you, but rather at the poor hiring practices that have permeated the software industry for too long. We've been gaslighted into accepting abusive hiring practices, and it has to stop. When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO you determine if they're real accountants or one of these fakers I've heard so much about that can't even do some simple books? Or how about lawyers? Do you ask them to write up a fictional legal brief or some boilerplate that the rest of your legal team can scrutinize to see if they're an A player? How about a multi-day interview just to make sure you've asked all the tough legal questions? No? Then how can you know that they're not going to drag your fragile company down with their poor performance and gasp have to be fired! The horror! How about civil engineers? Would you have them design a building foundation as a take-home? What about tricky interview questions weighing the pros and cons of various retaining wall designs in, say, Arizona vs Washington (even though they'd be working in New York)? I don't know how this level of abuse became a thing in software engineering, but I simply won't put up with it anymore. Won't post compensation ranges? You're trying to cheat me. Take home assignment? I walk. Interview gauntlet? I walk. Things drag on too long? I walk. I'm a professional - I have an extensive portfolio of my work slowly built up over decades that you can ask me in-depth questions about (and other things) during our reasonably timed interviews. Does inverting a tree in any way demonstrate my ability to do the job? No, it does not. My time is precious and the compensation trends are clear. Disrespect that and I can only conclude that you are not professional, and not worth my time.

SkyPuncher 4y ago
> When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO you determine if they're real accountants or one of these fakers I've heard so much about that can't even do some simple books? I'm a software engineer. My brother is an accountant. I know you're trying to pick a theoretical, but the answer to most of those questions is still yes. I don't think he had a take-home project, but he most definitely had several rounds of heavy-technical interviews. I'd much prefer the take home test over the BS he has to deal with.
- ochoseis 4y ago
  Not to mention all of the example professions require passing some form of certification or licensing exam before one may call themselves a lawyer / CPA / professional civil engineer / etc.
en4bz 4y ago
All the jobs you listed have professional associations that require passing exams. If you required the same level of testing and exams for devs I doubt half the software industry would pass.
quantum_state 4y ago
Would second what you said. If a team does not have the ability and confidence to determine hiring based on usual interviews, the team is not worth joining.
SmellTheGlove 4y ago
> When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO you determine if they're real accountants or one of these fakers I've heard so much about that can't even do some simple books? I've been at two startups, and both gave the accounting candidates take-home tests. Not an accountant, but on some interview loops. Edit: Im not advocating for take homes, just noting that they exist for accountants. > Or how about lawyers? Do you ask them to write up a fictional legal brief or some boilerplate that the rest of your legal team can scrutinize to see if they're an A player? How about a multi-day interview just to make sure you've asked all the tough legal questions? No? Then how can you know that they're not going to drag your fragile company down with their poor performance and gasp have to be fired! The horror! This is my former career. Having take home tests would absolutely be an improvement over the legal hiring process.
9k0feqvfn90jb 4y ago
IMO one solution to this problem would be to introduce some kind of industry wide licensing. Then we could pass the exam every 2 years or so and be done with all the current non-sense hiring practices.
37gi3beuc 4y ago
I think one solution to this problem might be to actually introduce licensing as a proof of the required skills in our profession (or in specific specialized areas at least)

SkyPuncher 4y ago

ochoseis 4y ago
Not to mention all of the example professions require passing some form of certification or licensing exam before one may call themselves a lawyer / CPA / professional civil engineer / etc.

en4bz 4y ago

All the jobs you listed have professional associations that require passing exams. If you required the same level of testing and exams for devs I doubt half the software industry would pass.

quantum_state 4y ago

Would second what you said. If a team does not have the ability and confidence to determine hiring based on usual interviews, the team is not worth joining.

SmellTheGlove 4y ago

> When you're hiring an accountant, do you give them 4h take-home assignments? How about hours of interviews with your accounting team to suss out their accounting skills and critique their style? I mean, how DO you determine if they're real accountants or one of these fakers I've heard so much about that can't even do some simple books? I've been at two startups, and both gave the accounting candidates take-home tests. Not an accountant, but on some interview loops. Edit: Im not advocating for take homes, just noting that they exist for accountants. > Or how about lawyers? Do you ask them to write up a fictional legal brief or some boilerplate that the rest of your legal team can scrutinize to see if they're an A player? How about a multi-day interview just to make sure you've asked all the tough legal questions? No? Then how can you know that they're not going to drag your fragile company down with their poor performance and gasp have to be fired! The horror! This is my former career. Having take home tests would absolutely be an improvement over the legal hiring process.

9k0feqvfn90jb 4y ago

IMO one solution to this problem would be to introduce some kind of industry wide licensing. Then we could pass the exam every 2 years or so and be done with all the current non-sense hiring practices.

37gi3beuc 4y ago

I think one solution to this problem might be to actually introduce licensing as a proof of the required skills in our profession (or in specific specialized areas at least)