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> Most meat & dairy consumed on this planet comes from factory farms - that's why it's so 'cheap'. And those animals are pumped with antibiotics and they also g

> Most meat & dairy consumed on this planet comes from factory farms - that's why it's so 'cheap'. And those animals are pumped with antibiotics and they also get supplements, like B12. That's not right. What you say does not apply to "this planet". It applies to "the United States", where factory farms are the norm. But they are not the norm outside the USA. For example, FAO reports that 1/3 of the world's food is produced by "family farms" (both animal and crop farms) which tend to be small and are in any case not CAFOs ("concentrated animal feeding operations"). This article quantifies the percentage of "smallholder" farmers to 80% (I haven't been able to find a better source for that number): https://sustainabilitycommunity.springernature.com/posts/are-small-farms-better https://sustainabilitycommunity.springernature.com/posts/are... Note the discrepancy: 1/3 of the world's food is produced by "family farms" but 80% of all farmers are "smallholders". That's because most food is produced and consumed in rich, industrialised countries, and the rest of the world is starving. Meat is certainly not "cheap" for, say, Ghanaian farmers, or their children! Neither is it as plentiful as for American office workers and their children. It might well be that the majority of beef in particular, is produced in factory farms, but that is because CAFOs is where the vast majority of beef is produced in the US which is one of the largest consumers of beef on the entire planet. The citizens of the US, Argentina and Brazil consume annually, per capita, almost twice as much as the citizens of other industrialised countries: https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-type?country=CHN~USA~IND~ARG~PRT~ETH~JPN~GBR~BRA https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/per-capita-meat-type?coun... As to antibiotics, the EU has now banned the preventive use of antibiotics in farm animals: https://sciencemediahub.eu/2019/01/03/antibiotics-on-farms-europe-votes-to-curb-bad-practices/ https://sciencemediahub.eu/2019/01/03/antibiotics-on-farms-e... And the supplementation of animals with B12 also appears to be a uniquely American thing, as far as I can tell. Certainly where I live, farming is mainly free-range and B12 supplementation is not necessary, at least according to my understanding, that free-grazing animals take their B12 from the bacterial flora of their wild feed... which is also responsible for the terroir of my cheeses, incidentally. > It's more the animals that are exploited to death and for what? That is not my question to answer. My problem is that those destructive methods that your people employ are spreading around the world and slowly taking over the farming and agriculture in my part of the world. Those practices, or the people that promote them, are my mortal enemies. Those practices go against everything I stand for and against everything I believe in. They destroy the traditions that have kept my people healthy and well-nourished for generations, even through poverty and war. They destroy our animals, and they destroy our relation with our animals. The day that all meat and dairy production in my land will be from CAFOs, is the day that we will all have turned into Americans. And then, I will never make cheese again.

uxcolumbo 4y ago
> That's not right. What you say does not apply to "this planet" More and more countries are trying to improve the efficiency of their meat production. It's not just the US. It's also China, India, Europe. Factory farming is efficient - but it's very destructive And it's a problem. Feeding the world with animal meat (without curbing demand) is not sustainable - see https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food. All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions. As per my other reply... Is it logical to feed the world with products that require the most resources and have the most devastating impacts on our biosphere? > That is not my question to answer. Why not? Wouldn't you want to avoid exploitation and violence where possible? > And then, I will never make cheese again. Have you tried making cheese with other types of milk? It's pretty amazing how far we got with making non-dairy cheese products.
- cheese_goddess 4y ago
  I don't get why you have to eat fake food when you're vegan? I cook and eat plenty of plants, in fact one of my favourite dishes is a cssserole with aubergines, potatoes, bell peppers, courgettes, and a sauce of tomato, garlic and onion with plenty of extra virgin olive oil. A vegan could eat that. The last thing I'd think of eating if I were to go vegan (when hell freezes over) is fake cheese, or fake meat. I eat food because it fills my belly, not because it looks good. Anyway, tell you what. You make your vegan nut paste and age it for a year. See what that gets you. Actually, I'll tell you: you'll get a dessicated, crumbly, bitter, mold-ridden mess. After a year, my sheep's milk hard chees is ... still cheese. It has a musky, gamey, smokey aroma, it has a piquant taste and you can feel the little lactic crystals curnching undertooth as you chew. That is cheese. And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste. Not in a hundred years. Because plant proteins are not caseins, and because cheese is a gel made of coagulated casein, and vegan nut past is a paste. And a hundred other chemical, biological, organoleptic etc etc qualities that clearly distinguish cheese, from non cheese. The only people you can convince that nut paste tastes like cheese are people used to eating processed cheese (American cheese) and other such abominations. Like you can fake burgers and nuggets, but not a steak, you can fake fake cheese, but not real cheese. Down with fake food! I don't understand why vegans keep supporting the very food industry that is destroying the environment and torturing animals. It's the same people who sold you beef burgers when you weren't yet vegan that want to sell you pea burgers now that you are. Why do you think they'll care what you eat, or how destructive, or immoral its production is? > All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions. Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. Their emissiosn still do not compare to the emissions that come from burning fossil fuels. See: https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector Three quarters of (CO2 adjusted) emissions come from energy production, the vast majority of which is by burning fossil fuels. Emissions from all of agriculture (farming and crops) are about 18%. It is clear what is destroying the environment. But you and other vegans keep banging on and on about how it is meat that's destroying the environment. Why? You're just playing into the hands of the oil companies. And not only you're not doing anything to protect the environment, but by distracting from the real source of climate change, you're making it even harder to convince people to change their nature-destroying habbit of burning fossil fuels. So, I'm sorry, but at this point I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest, unless they are an actual environmental activist, rather than a vegan activist (or just someone who likes to argue vegan on the internet).

uxcolumbo 4y ago

> That's not right. What you say does not apply to "this planet" More and more countries are trying to improve the efficiency of their meat production. It's not just the US. It's also China, India, Europe. Factory farming is efficient - but it's very destructive And it's a problem. Feeding the world with animal meat (without curbing demand) is not sustainable - see https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food https://ourworldindata.org/environmental-impacts-of-food. All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions. As per my other reply... Is it logical to feed the world with products that require the most resources and have the most devastating impacts on our biosphere? > That is not my question to answer. Why not? Wouldn't you want to avoid exploitation and violence where possible? > And then, I will never make cheese again. Have you tried making cheese with other types of milk? It's pretty amazing how far we got with making non-dairy cheese products.

cheese_goddess 4y ago
I don't get why you have to eat fake food when you're vegan? I cook and eat plenty of plants, in fact one of my favourite dishes is a cssserole with aubergines, potatoes, bell peppers, courgettes, and a sauce of tomato, garlic and onion with plenty of extra virgin olive oil. A vegan could eat that. The last thing I'd think of eating if I were to go vegan (when hell freezes over) is fake cheese, or fake meat. I eat food because it fills my belly, not because it looks good. Anyway, tell you what. You make your vegan nut paste and age it for a year. See what that gets you. Actually, I'll tell you: you'll get a dessicated, crumbly, bitter, mold-ridden mess. After a year, my sheep's milk hard chees is ... still cheese. It has a musky, gamey, smokey aroma, it has a piquant taste and you can feel the little lactic crystals curnching undertooth as you chew. That is cheese. And, no, you're never gonna get there with vegan nut paste. Not in a hundred years. Because plant proteins are not caseins, and because cheese is a gel made of coagulated casein, and vegan nut past is a paste. And a hundred other chemical, biological, organoleptic etc etc qualities that clearly distinguish cheese, from non cheese. The only people you can convince that nut paste tastes like cheese are people used to eating processed cheese (American cheese) and other such abominations. Like you can fake burgers and nuggets, but not a steak, you can fake fake cheese, but not real cheese. Down with fake food! I don't understand why vegans keep supporting the very food industry that is destroying the environment and torturing animals. It's the same people who sold you beef burgers when you weren't yet vegan that want to sell you pea burgers now that you are. Why do you think they'll care what you eat, or how destructive, or immoral its production is? > All those animal products have the highest GHG emissions. Highest- among all types of food we're currently producing. Their emissiosn still do not compare to the emissions that come from burning fossil fuels. See: https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector https://ourworldindata.org/ghg-emissions-by-sector Three quarters of (CO2 adjusted) emissions come from energy production, the vast majority of which is by burning fossil fuels. Emissions from all of agriculture (farming and crops) are about 18%. It is clear what is destroying the environment. But you and other vegans keep banging on and on about how it is meat that's destroying the environment. Why? You're just playing into the hands of the oil companies. And not only you're not doing anything to protect the environment, but by distracting from the real source of climate change, you're making it even harder to convince people to change their nature-destroying habbit of burning fossil fuels. So, I'm sorry, but at this point I consider every vegan who tells me meat destroys the environment to be dishonest, unless they are an actual environmental activist, rather than a vegan activist (or just someone who likes to argue vegan on the internet).