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Absolutely there's cost to the business even if you don't use the service. There's marketing, salary, healthcare, leases, and any other number of expenses. Gym'

Absolutely there's cost to the business even if you don't use the service. There's marketing, salary, healthcare, leases, and any other number of expenses. Gym's pay rent regardless of you showing up. Netflix still has pay for content you don't watch. The entire point of a subscription model is that a business can offer a steeply discounted price vs. pay-as-you-go in exchange for predictable, recurring revenue. That's the only way the model works.

bigiain 4y ago
> Gym's pay rent regardless of you showing up. In my opinion, that's the industry (at least here in .au) that are the poster-child worst example of dark patterns in manipulative subscription charging. They are infamous here for doing fucked up things in an attempt to make it as difficult as possible to cancel your subscription. I had one friend who moved overseas, discovered his gym was still billing him monthly even though he'd emailed to cancel explaining they didn't have any locations in his new country of residence, and they tried to claim the only way to cancel his subscription was in-person at the location he signed up at. He had to lawyer up when he cancelled the credit card (and told them he'd done so), and they threatened to send his account to a collection agency. (On single lawyer letter got him a refund of all charges since the date of his original email saying he was cancelling, so they _knew_ they were legally in the wrong and wouldn't have a leg to stand on it of ever got to court.)
- wpietri 4y ago
  That's a really good example of the sort of exploitative thinking I'm talking about. They clearly knew what they were doing. As do all the companies who let you sign up easily, but where cancellation requires filing a form "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'" and then spending 30 minutes on the phone with an obtuse and obstreperous call center rep. And it's all just such a waste for everybody. The first gym I joined was run by a very dedicated muscle-head who was at his gym a fair bit. You signed up for a fixed period, like a week or a month or a quarter. At the end of the period, you could renew if you wanted. And if you weren't coming to the gym often enough, he'd ask why you weren't coming. He believed in his product and wanted people to be successful at his gym. But I'd guess part of the reason that doesn't dominate is that awful gym companies sucker people in, do everything they can to become credit card parasites, and then spend a lot of the extra money on marketing and on giving people good-looking deals that they know they won't use.
wpietri 4y ago
Sorry, I thought you'd understand I was talking about marginal cost. Yes, I understand that software companies have non-marginal expenses. And yes, gyms pay rent, but I clearly said I was talking about "service/software subscriptions". I also disagree that's the point of subscription models. If I'm on a month-to-month subscription, there's no legal guarantee the revenue is predictable more than 30 days out. That would be just as true if auto-suspend were required for non-use.
- tomnipotent 4y ago
  > I understand that software companies have non-marginal expenses. For most subscription businesses and SaaS companies, non-marginal costs are most of the costs. The pennies Netflix saves if you don't stream during the month are a pittance compared to other SG&A expenses like headcount and content production. > I also disagree that's the point of subscription models. What do you think the point is? Why would Jetbrain's move to a subscription model? Why does Spotify stream music and not sell tracks and albums? A subscription model is a fundamentally different business than one offering standard transactional sales.

bigiain 4y ago

> Gym's pay rent regardless of you showing up. In my opinion, that's the industry (at least here in .au) that are the poster-child worst example of dark patterns in manipulative subscription charging. They are infamous here for doing fucked up things in an attempt to make it as difficult as possible to cancel your subscription. I had one friend who moved overseas, discovered his gym was still billing him monthly even though he'd emailed to cancel explaining they didn't have any locations in his new country of residence, and they tried to claim the only way to cancel his subscription was in-person at the location he signed up at. He had to lawyer up when he cancelled the credit card (and told them he'd done so), and they threatened to send his account to a collection agency. (On single lawyer letter got him a refund of all charges since the date of his original email saying he was cancelling, so they _knew_ they were legally in the wrong and wouldn't have a leg to stand on it of ever got to court.)

wpietri 4y ago
That's a really good example of the sort of exploitative thinking I'm talking about. They clearly knew what they were doing. As do all the companies who let you sign up easily, but where cancellation requires filing a form "in the bottom of a locked filing cabinet stuck in a disused lavatory with a sign on the door saying 'Beware of the Leopard'" and then spending 30 minutes on the phone with an obtuse and obstreperous call center rep. And it's all just such a waste for everybody. The first gym I joined was run by a very dedicated muscle-head who was at his gym a fair bit. You signed up for a fixed period, like a week or a month or a quarter. At the end of the period, you could renew if you wanted. And if you weren't coming to the gym often enough, he'd ask why you weren't coming. He believed in his product and wanted people to be successful at his gym. But I'd guess part of the reason that doesn't dominate is that awful gym companies sucker people in, do everything they can to become credit card parasites, and then spend a lot of the extra money on marketing and on giving people good-looking deals that they know they won't use.

wpietri 4y ago

Sorry, I thought you'd understand I was talking about marginal cost. Yes, I understand that software companies have non-marginal expenses. And yes, gyms pay rent, but I clearly said I was talking about "service/software subscriptions". I also disagree that's the point of subscription models. If I'm on a month-to-month subscription, there's no legal guarantee the revenue is predictable more than 30 days out. That would be just as true if auto-suspend were required for non-use.

tomnipotent 4y ago
> I understand that software companies have non-marginal expenses. For most subscription businesses and SaaS companies, non-marginal costs are most of the costs. The pennies Netflix saves if you don't stream during the month are a pittance compared to other SG&A expenses like headcount and content production. > I also disagree that's the point of subscription models. What do you think the point is? Why would Jetbrain's move to a subscription model? Why does Spotify stream music and not sell tracks and albums? A subscription model is a fundamentally different business than one offering standard transactional sales.