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I never said anything about plants being "equally nourishing". I certainly believe that it is "justified" to kill another animal of a different species to eat i

I never said anything about plants being "equally nourishing". I certainly believe that it is "justified" to kill another animal of a different species to eat its flesh. You can't eat an animal's flesh without enjoying it, so I don't care about your sneaky attempt to turn the simple issue of what nourishes our bodies to a morality play about pleasure. I do not feel any guilt about my bodily functions. If I thought killing an animal to eat its flesh is not justified, then why would I think that killing a plant to eat its flesh is justified? A life is a life and to feed you have to take a life (or many). You're an animal and a cow is an animal, and so you (seem to?) think that a cow's life is more important or valuable than that of a potato, but that is an inconsistent and self-centered belief. I don't really care about your distinction between "sentient" and, presumably non-sentient, either. That's an arbitrary distinction you have conjured up just to support your misguided ideology. In a vast universe that is almost entirely composed of dead matter, we must value life above all else, in all its forms. To value one being's life over another is an abominable injustice and it is only with extreme contortions of reason that vegans and vegetarians arrive at it. Or rather, historically, it is because of religious beliefs (like in Buddhists etc) that they do.

uxcolumbo 4y ago
There is a difference between animals and plants. That's a scientific fact. The question isn't which is more valuable - it's: can they suffer? The answer is yes - other animals suffer - just like us human animals. Plants don't suffer as they don't have pain receptor cells or a central nervous system. Take your example of a potato and a cow. If you cut a potato in half - it lives on and you will have more potatoes if you let those pieces grow. I think you know what happens to a cow when it's cut in half. Have you ever killed an animal? If so, how did it react? What did you feel while it was screaming for its life? What happens when you pick an apple or harvest nuts, legumes etc? Another thought experiment. How do you think children would react to the following scenarios: A) Cutting the throat of a baby sheep or pig, the blood gushing out and the animal screaming of pain - and the mother if she's nearby screaming as well because its baby is being slaughtered. B) Cutting a carrot, apple, mango or other fruit / vegetable or crushing nuts. There are various videos online showing how children react when they find out where meat comes from. They are shocked and cry - without even having to show them these graphic images. It's a sign that humans are not carnivores. Our mouths don't salivate when we see or smell blood, when we see intestines etc. quite the opposite - most people are disgusted by seeing all this stuff. That's why all this is hidden from us. We only see nice pieces of meat in the shops. As per Carl Sagan's words - 'They (animals) are too much like us'. The fact is - humans who are not hunter gatherers anymore or don't live in harsh environments, don't need meat to survive. Several government health organizations have already stated that humans can get adequate nutrition from plant-based foods alone. Since you are here on HN, I'm assuming you are interested in tech. I'm assuming you appreciate a logical way of thinking. What is more logical when it comes to feeding the world. A) Consume foods that require FEWER resources and create less damage to our biosphere. B) Consume foods that require MORE resources and slowly destroy our biosphere. I'm not attacking your way of life. But we humans have given up previous practices that didn't make sense anymore, e.g. burning women alive because they were deemed 'witches'. Enslaving other humans, because they were deemed a lesser human. There are reports of farmers talking about how they've given up farming animals, as they realized 'there is somebody in there' - and transitioned to non animal farming. Just because something is a tradition, doesn't mean it's right. We humans evolve and so does our moral system. Einstein talked about this 70 years ago - if we as a civilization want to survive, we can achieve this by 'widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.' Future humans will equate what we are currently doing to animals the same way we find it morally reprehensible to enslave other humans. Even Star Trek envisioned this kind of future, where animals are not exploited anymore. Like I said before, it would be great if the world could at least adopt the lifestyle you outlined, i.e. have a diet that's mostly plant-based. But as you already noted - the factory farm industry is trying to enter your world. And that's the problem - we need to eradicate this destructive industry. A parting question: If you can avoid cruelty, suffering and exploitation - why don't you? Ignore all of the above, if you would die without eating meat.
- cheese_goddess 4y ago
  So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. And why is this any better? You only care about animal suffering because you are an animal who can suffer yourself. Your ideology remains selfish an self-centered. You don't care about killing a potato because the potato doesn't bleed and try to run away. You're still only thinking about yourself whle pretending to think of others. Anyway it's a muddled and confused ideology that you obviously haven't thought about very carefully. > Several government health organizations have already stated that humans can get adequate nutrition from plant-based foods alone. No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" (or words to that effect) vegan diet can be healthy. But only if it is carefully supplemented with all the nutrients that are missing from plant-only diets, such as B12 vitamins. Vegans are supposed to know that and still most do not get enough B12 to stay healthy: > Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications. https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... In extreme cases, vegans have fed their children their ideologically-driven diets and have caused serious damage to their childrens' health, even death: https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 Vegan diest are not healthy. They are lacking in essential nutrients and are only so popular because most people who eat them, do not understand the danger to their health.
  - uxcolumbo 4y ago
    > So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. And why do you keep comparing animals to potatoes? As noted before, it's a scientific fact that plants are not the same as animals. They don't have pain receptors or a central nervous system. Most probably the reason why they didn't evolve mechanism to 'run away'. Here is another thought experiment for you. If you had to choose between the following 2 jobs, which one would you choose. Please answer if you can: A) Work on the kill floor in a slaughterhouse. To quote a former slaughter house worker "the one thing you can never really understand unless you’ve been there – is the smell. The blood, such an acrid, thick scent, it feels like it physically travels inside your nose and stays there. The fear has its own scent. It’s not something I could put into words, but even now, I would recognize it. It’s physically hard too. These animals know what’s coming, and believe me, they fight against death with every fibre of their being." B) Work in a vegetable or fruit processing plant. FYI, slaughterhouse workers suffer from PTSD. MMA fighter Mike Bisping worked in a slaughterhouse and couldn't last 2 weeks. So, could you work on the kill floor? If not - why pay others, who might not have any other option - just so we can have our meat. > No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" Well planned simply means choosing plant-based foods that provide the nutrients you need. Same counts for meat eaters. Meat eaters have been advised to supplement D3. And according to the article you linked it says: "Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency. Two subgroups of vegans are at particular risk of B12 deficiency: long-term vegans who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own intake of B12 is low." It says most vegans have no problems. Some who are on a raw fruit / veg diet - yes they lack nutrients and need to supplement. So using that very small group to back up your argument that a plant-based diet is unhealthy is dishonest. Supplementation is easy. Just eat fortified foods or consume B12, which is extremely cheap to buy. > Vegan diet are not healthy. Your statement goes against many nutrition experts. Not only is a plant-based diet healthy, it can also prevent chronic diseases. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics with over 112,000 members is one of the largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. Here is their stance on plant-based diets: "Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment [...] not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer." And you seem to think you know better than 17,000 Physicians who are campaigning for a plant-based diet - https://www.pcrm.org/about-us https://www.pcrm.org/about-us Furthermore - tell this to the various athletes who are thriving on a plant-based diet. See https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/ Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. If you don't support the large scale animal agriculture industry and mostly consume plant-based dishes then that's great! More power to you. But I encourage you to review your stance on animal well-being / rights and not just view them the same as potatoes. Eating animals when it's not required for survival means that they have to be exploited and killed and for what? Tradition and taste? Here is Damian Mander (ex special forces guy) on how to protect animals: https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 Same question as before - if you can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why wouldn't you?

uxcolumbo 4y ago

There is a difference between animals and plants. That's a scientific fact. The question isn't which is more valuable - it's: can they suffer? The answer is yes - other animals suffer - just like us human animals. Plants don't suffer as they don't have pain receptor cells or a central nervous system. Take your example of a potato and a cow. If you cut a potato in half - it lives on and you will have more potatoes if you let those pieces grow. I think you know what happens to a cow when it's cut in half. Have you ever killed an animal? If so, how did it react? What did you feel while it was screaming for its life? What happens when you pick an apple or harvest nuts, legumes etc? Another thought experiment. How do you think children would react to the following scenarios: A) Cutting the throat of a baby sheep or pig, the blood gushing out and the animal screaming of pain - and the mother if she's nearby screaming as well because its baby is being slaughtered. B) Cutting a carrot, apple, mango or other fruit / vegetable or crushing nuts. There are various videos online showing how children react when they find out where meat comes from. They are shocked and cry - without even having to show them these graphic images. It's a sign that humans are not carnivores. Our mouths don't salivate when we see or smell blood, when we see intestines etc. quite the opposite - most people are disgusted by seeing all this stuff. That's why all this is hidden from us. We only see nice pieces of meat in the shops. As per Carl Sagan's words - 'They (animals) are too much like us'. The fact is - humans who are not hunter gatherers anymore or don't live in harsh environments, don't need meat to survive. Several government health organizations have already stated that humans can get adequate nutrition from plant-based foods alone. Since you are here on HN, I'm assuming you are interested in tech. I'm assuming you appreciate a logical way of thinking. What is more logical when it comes to feeding the world. A) Consume foods that require FEWER resources and create less damage to our biosphere. B) Consume foods that require MORE resources and slowly destroy our biosphere. I'm not attacking your way of life. But we humans have given up previous practices that didn't make sense anymore, e.g. burning women alive because they were deemed 'witches'. Enslaving other humans, because they were deemed a lesser human. There are reports of farmers talking about how they've given up farming animals, as they realized 'there is somebody in there' - and transitioned to non animal farming. Just because something is a tradition, doesn't mean it's right. We humans evolve and so does our moral system. Einstein talked about this 70 years ago - if we as a civilization want to survive, we can achieve this by 'widening our circles of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty.' Future humans will equate what we are currently doing to animals the same way we find it morally reprehensible to enslave other humans. Even Star Trek envisioned this kind of future, where animals are not exploited anymore. Like I said before, it would be great if the world could at least adopt the lifestyle you outlined, i.e. have a diet that's mostly plant-based. But as you already noted - the factory farm industry is trying to enter your world. And that's the problem - we need to eradicate this destructive industry. A parting question: If you can avoid cruelty, suffering and exploitation - why don't you? Ignore all of the above, if you would die without eating meat.

cheese_goddess 4y ago
So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. And why is this any better? You only care about animal suffering because you are an animal who can suffer yourself. Your ideology remains selfish an self-centered. You don't care about killing a potato because the potato doesn't bleed and try to run away. You're still only thinking about yourself whle pretending to think of others. Anyway it's a muddled and confused ideology that you obviously haven't thought about very carefully. > Several government health organizations have already stated that humans can get adequate nutrition from plant-based foods alone. No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" (or words to that effect) vegan diet can be healthy. But only if it is carefully supplemented with all the nutrients that are missing from plant-only diets, such as B12 vitamins. Vegans are supposed to know that and still most do not get enough B12 to stay healthy: > Most vegans show adequate B12 levels to make clinical deficiency unlikely but nonetheless show restricted activity of B12 related enzymes, leading to elevated homocysteine levels. Strong evidence has been gathered over the past decade that even slightly elevated homocysteine levels increase risk of heart disease and stroke and pregnancy complications. https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/... In extreme cases, vegans have fed their children their ideologically-driven diets and have caused serious damage to their childrens' health, even death: https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 https://europepmc.org/article/PMC/2528709 Vegan diest are not healthy. They are lacking in essential nutrients and are only so popular because most people who eat them, do not understand the danger to their health.
- uxcolumbo 4y ago
  > So you just shifted the goal posts, huh? First you cared about killing a sentient being, now you care about their suffering. FYI, the definition of suffering is: "to endure death, pain, or distress". So if you kill an animal, it will suffer. And why do you keep comparing animals to potatoes? As noted before, it's a scientific fact that plants are not the same as animals. They don't have pain receptors or a central nervous system. Most probably the reason why they didn't evolve mechanism to 'run away'. Here is another thought experiment for you. If you had to choose between the following 2 jobs, which one would you choose. Please answer if you can: A) Work on the kill floor in a slaughterhouse. To quote a former slaughter house worker "the one thing you can never really understand unless you’ve been there – is the smell. The blood, such an acrid, thick scent, it feels like it physically travels inside your nose and stays there. The fear has its own scent. It’s not something I could put into words, but even now, I would recognize it. It’s physically hard too. These animals know what’s coming, and believe me, they fight against death with every fibre of their being." B) Work in a vegetable or fruit processing plant. FYI, slaughterhouse workers suffer from PTSD. MMA fighter Mike Bisping worked in a slaughterhouse and couldn't last 2 weeks. So, could you work on the kill floor? If not - why pay others, who might not have any other option - just so we can have our meat. > No, that's not what those organisations say. What they say is that a "well-planned" Well planned simply means choosing plant-based foods that provide the nutrients you need. Same counts for meat eaters. Meat eaters have been advised to supplement D3. And according to the article you linked it says: "Most vegans consume enough B12 to avoid clinical deficiency. Two subgroups of vegans are at particular risk of B12 deficiency: long-term vegans who avoid common fortified foods (such as raw food vegans or macrobiotic vegans) and breastfed infants of vegan mothers whose own intake of B12 is low." It says most vegans have no problems. Some who are on a raw fruit / veg diet - yes they lack nutrients and need to supplement. So using that very small group to back up your argument that a plant-based diet is unhealthy is dishonest. Supplementation is easy. Just eat fortified foods or consume B12, which is extremely cheap to buy. > Vegan diet are not healthy. Your statement goes against many nutrition experts. Not only is a plant-based diet healthy, it can also prevent chronic diseases. The Academy of Nutrition and Dietetics with over 112,000 members is one of the largest organization of food and nutrition professionals. Here is their stance on plant-based diets: "Vegetarian and vegan diets are healthful, may prevent and treat chronic diseases, and are better for the environment [...] not only are vegetarian and vegan diets appropriate for all stages of the life cycle (pregnancy, infancy, childhood, etc.), but they also help reduce the risk for heart disease, high blood pressure, type 2 diabetes, stroke, obesity, and some types of cancer." And you seem to think you know better than 17,000 Physicians who are campaigning for a plant-based diet - https://www.pcrm.org/about-us https://www.pcrm.org/about-us Furthermore - tell this to the various athletes who are thriving on a plant-based diet. See https://gamechangersmovie.com/ https://gamechangersmovie.com/ Look, I get that your identity seems to be tied heavily to food - I mean your user name 'cheese_goddess' gives a clue. If you don't support the large scale animal agriculture industry and mostly consume plant-based dishes then that's great! More power to you. But I encourage you to review your stance on animal well-being / rights and not just view them the same as potatoes. Eating animals when it's not required for survival means that they have to be exploited and killed and for what? Tradition and taste? Here is Damian Mander (ex special forces guy) on how to protect animals: https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 https://youtu.be/BUMGBwgGYWw?t=100 Same question as before - if you can avoid cruelty and violence towards other sentient beings - why wouldn't you?