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And most people do not use crypto? I don't see how the comparison to payment processing companies built on-top of the financial infrastructure is relevant, when

And most people do not use crypto? I don't see how the comparison to payment processing companies built on-top of the financial infrastructure is relevant, when bare-metal level of crypto acts most like wiring / transfering money between banks. And no, a wire transfer or intra-bank transfer is typically not reversed. Even for big-names, like Linus, it is not so simple and requires personal connections with industry insiders to even get simple cases of fraud reversed. [1] https://twitter.com/swiftonsecurity/status/1512187592414052353?lang=en https://twitter.com/swiftonsecurity/status/15121875924140523... He mentioned it in his long WAN VODs, so there isn't a nice source to link to

klodolph 4y ago
I don’t see how “most people don’t use crypto” is at all germane to the discussion. Of course most people don’t use crypto—it’s kinda new. No other explanation is needed. At the end of the day, what I care about is that I can safely make a transaction to get something I want in exchange for something that I have. The safety protections involve the ability to identify accounts with real people within the reach of the law, the ability to reverse transactions made fraudulently, etc. If I have US dollars and want something that isn’t US dollars, then I have a ton of safe options to do that (with different protection depending on what I choose). If I instead have some kind of crypto asset and want something that’s not a crypto asset, the fraud protection is much weaker. Yeah, crypto is kinda bare-metal. Isn’t that a major problem with it? > And no, a wire transfer or intra-bank transfer is typically not reversed. Yes, it sounds like we agree on this point. This is part of why most people don’t use wire transfers. There are, however, conditions where wire transfers can be reversed. Banks are also somewhat proactive about protecting you from making wire transfers. It’s not a service that they offer lightly.
- jimmydorry 4y ago
  >I don’t see how “most people don’t use crypto” is at all germane to the discussion. Crypto's closest anologue is wire transfers... which you excluded with the reason of "most people don't use them". >At the end of the day, what I care about is that I can safely make a transaction to get something I want in exchange for something that I have. The safety protections involve the ability to identify accounts with real people within the reach of the law, the ability to reverse transactions made fraudulently, etc. If I have US dollars and want something that isn’t US dollars, then I have a ton of safe options to do that (with different protection depending on what I choose). If I instead have some kind of crypto asset and want something that’s not a crypto asset, the fraud protection is much weaker. Again, try applying any of this to wire transfers. Almost all of these concerns apply to both crypto and wire transfers. >Yeah, crypto is kinda bare-metal. Isn’t that a major problem with it? What's the issue with having access to a permisionless, bare-metal system? >There are, however, conditions where wire transfers can be reversed. Banks are also somewhat proactive about protecting you from making wire transfers. It’s not a service that they offer lightly. That is not reversing, that's simply preventing you from initiating the transfer.
  - klodolph 4y ago
    I don't understand what kind of argument you are trying to make here. It seems like you are interested in comparing wire transfers to cryptocurrency, but I don't understand what comparison you're trying to make or what the purpose of the comparison is. Either I just don't understand what you're saying, or maybe your argument doesn't make any sense, or maybe you're just really bad at explaining things. I had thought that this was a comparison of modern non-crypto banking / finance systems to the infrastructure provided by crypto, but you have made it very clear that you consider a more general comparison "out of scope" for whatever point you are trying to make.

klodolph 4y ago

I don’t see how “most people don’t use crypto” is at all germane to the discussion. Of course most people don’t use crypto—it’s kinda new. No other explanation is needed. At the end of the day, what I care about is that I can safely make a transaction to get something I want in exchange for something that I have. The safety protections involve the ability to identify accounts with real people within the reach of the law, the ability to reverse transactions made fraudulently, etc. If I have US dollars and want something that isn’t US dollars, then I have a ton of safe options to do that (with different protection depending on what I choose). If I instead have some kind of crypto asset and want something that’s not a crypto asset, the fraud protection is much weaker. Yeah, crypto is kinda bare-metal. Isn’t that a major problem with it? > And no, a wire transfer or intra-bank transfer is typically not reversed. Yes, it sounds like we agree on this point. This is part of why most people don’t use wire transfers. There are, however, conditions where wire transfers can be reversed. Banks are also somewhat proactive about protecting you from making wire transfers. It’s not a service that they offer lightly.

jimmydorry 4y ago
>I don’t see how “most people don’t use crypto” is at all germane to the discussion. Crypto's closest anologue is wire transfers... which you excluded with the reason of "most people don't use them". >At the end of the day, what I care about is that I can safely make a transaction to get something I want in exchange for something that I have. The safety protections involve the ability to identify accounts with real people within the reach of the law, the ability to reverse transactions made fraudulently, etc. If I have US dollars and want something that isn’t US dollars, then I have a ton of safe options to do that (with different protection depending on what I choose). If I instead have some kind of crypto asset and want something that’s not a crypto asset, the fraud protection is much weaker. Again, try applying any of this to wire transfers. Almost all of these concerns apply to both crypto and wire transfers. >Yeah, crypto is kinda bare-metal. Isn’t that a major problem with it? What's the issue with having access to a permisionless, bare-metal system? >There are, however, conditions where wire transfers can be reversed. Banks are also somewhat proactive about protecting you from making wire transfers. It’s not a service that they offer lightly. That is not reversing, that's simply preventing you from initiating the transfer.
- klodolph 4y ago
  I don't understand what kind of argument you are trying to make here. It seems like you are interested in comparing wire transfers to cryptocurrency, but I don't understand what comparison you're trying to make or what the purpose of the comparison is. Either I just don't understand what you're saying, or maybe your argument doesn't make any sense, or maybe you're just really bad at explaining things. I had thought that this was a comparison of modern non-crypto banking / finance systems to the infrastructure provided by crypto, but you have made it very clear that you consider a more general comparison "out of scope" for whatever point you are trying to make.