5 ms·

There are comments here about what "affordable" should mean in the US. I have two kids (1 boy and 1 girl, one special needs) and we live in a two bedroom (850s

There are comments here about what "affordable" should mean in the US. I have two kids (1 boy and 1 girl, one special needs) and we live in a two bedroom (850sqft) with the living room doubling as our bedroom so the kids get rooms. When I go visit friends or family that have 3/4/5 bedrooms it feels like a mansion, so I guess what's normal is a function of what you are used to. I will say that the challenges that come from living this small are very different from what my friends and family talk about. This is in SoCal for location reference, and I WFH.

oneoff786 4y ago
I’m amused that you start by mentioning affordable and then make no reference to cost
- CobaltFire 4y ago
  It's SoCal, so cost is relative. It's absolutely ridiculous what things cost here. My place would rent for about $3400 if it hit the market. I think market value is around $1m, and it was built in the 1920's.
Dma54rhs 4y ago
I know it doesn't make you feel any better but that size of a home for family of 4 in Europe would be absolutely normal. For me it sounds like the topic is not even about "affordable housing" here anymore.
- Xylakant 4y ago
  I think that depends on where in Europe you’re located. That’s about 80 sqm if I’m not mistaken and it’s definitely on the lower end for a family of four in Germany, though clearly not outrageously small. (+) Our friends from my wife’s part of the family in eastern Poland happily have flats that many Germans would consider shoeboxes - I’d roughly estimate 2/3rds or less of the size. (+) for example social security rules for flat sizes that need to be paid for are (roughly) 45sqm for the first person, plus 15 sqm for each next, so 4 adults would get up to 90 sqm.
  - jaclaz 4y ago
    Only as a reference/comparison, in Italy the mimimum apartment allowed (intended for 1 person) is 28 sqm, to which you add 10 sqm for each adult more, children below 14 (if I remember correctly) do not count. The typical 28 sqm apartment (they are called here "popular houses" and are usually built by some public entity and rented out to people in need at lowish rates) is actually fine (in a minimalistic view) for a single, as it usually includes an entrance/dining room/kitchen, a bedroom and a bathroom, but the 38 sqm and larger houses for 3 or more people do actually look like "shoeboxes".
- CobaltFire 4y ago
  It doesn't bother me; I grew up poor and my wife is foreign so we are used to "small" places. :)
- floxy 4y ago
  Some non-California houses for comparisons sake: $195,000; 3,500 sq. ft. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1222-Broad-St-Grinnell-IA-50112/87060590_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1222-Broad-St-Grinnell-IA... $165,000; 2,500 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/541-N-Walnut-St-Red-Cloud-NE-68970/108980722_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/541-N-Walnut-St-Red-Cloud... $122,500; 2,560 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/301-S-Blackhoof-St-Wapakoneta-OH-45895/51300641_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/301-S-Blackhoof-St-Wapako... $249,900; 3,136 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1217-River-Ave-E-Ladysmith-WI-54848/105093256_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1217-River-Ave-E-Ladysmit... $225,000; 3,395 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10369-Ackley-St-Rapid-River-MI-49878/115043841_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10369-Ackley-St-Rapid-Riv...
  - heavyset_go 4y ago
    Houses can be cheaper in Rust Belt areas, but often for a reason. Sometimes that reason is that over the last ~20 years, people have been working hard to escape those areas due to stagnant or failing economies. One of your listings, for Ladysmith, Wisconsin in particular, has been dropping in population by roughly 10% each decade since 2000. Same goes for the house in Nebraska, the town it's in has been dropping in population at about the same rate since 1980. It might work out if you can do remote work for the rest of you career, but some of those listings, like a different one from Michigan, are for homes in towns with about only 1,700 people total in a 160 sq. mile area and with a per capita income of about $18,000 a year. Your options for work dwindle really fast if you lose your job after moving there.
  - andsoitis 4y ago
    The first house in in zip 50112, which has a 90% higher crime rate than other cities and town in Iowa.
    - dredmorbius 4y ago
      Source? That's a highly rural ZIP Code whose principle town is home to Grinnell College. That hardly strikes me as likely to be a consistently high-crime area, most especially of violent crime.

oneoff786 4y ago

I’m amused that you start by mentioning affordable and then make no reference to cost

CobaltFire 4y ago
It's SoCal, so cost is relative. It's absolutely ridiculous what things cost here. My place would rent for about $3400 if it hit the market. I think market value is around $1m, and it was built in the 1920's.

Dma54rhs 4y ago

I know it doesn't make you feel any better but that size of a home for family of 4 in Europe would be absolutely normal. For me it sounds like the topic is not even about "affordable housing" here anymore.

Xylakant 4y ago
I think that depends on where in Europe you’re located. That’s about 80 sqm if I’m not mistaken and it’s definitely on the lower end for a family of four in Germany, though clearly not outrageously small. (+) Our friends from my wife’s part of the family in eastern Poland happily have flats that many Germans would consider shoeboxes - I’d roughly estimate 2/3rds or less of the size. (+) for example social security rules for flat sizes that need to be paid for are (roughly) 45sqm for the first person, plus 15 sqm for each next, so 4 adults would get up to 90 sqm.
- jaclaz 4y ago
  Only as a reference/comparison, in Italy the mimimum apartment allowed (intended for 1 person) is 28 sqm, to which you add 10 sqm for each adult more, children below 14 (if I remember correctly) do not count. The typical 28 sqm apartment (they are called here "popular houses" and are usually built by some public entity and rented out to people in need at lowish rates) is actually fine (in a minimalistic view) for a single, as it usually includes an entrance/dining room/kitchen, a bedroom and a bathroom, but the 38 sqm and larger houses for 3 or more people do actually look like "shoeboxes".
CobaltFire 4y ago
It doesn't bother me; I grew up poor and my wife is foreign so we are used to "small" places. :)
floxy 4y ago
Some non-California houses for comparisons sake: $195,000; 3,500 sq. ft. https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1222-Broad-St-Grinnell-IA-50112/87060590_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1222-Broad-St-Grinnell-IA... $165,000; 2,500 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/541-N-Walnut-St-Red-Cloud-NE-68970/108980722_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/541-N-Walnut-St-Red-Cloud... $122,500; 2,560 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/301-S-Blackhoof-St-Wapakoneta-OH-45895/51300641_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/301-S-Blackhoof-St-Wapako... $249,900; 3,136 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1217-River-Ave-E-Ladysmith-WI-54848/105093256_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/1217-River-Ave-E-Ladysmit... $225,000; 3,395 sq ft https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10369-Ackley-St-Rapid-River-MI-49878/115043841_zpid/ https://www.zillow.com/homedetails/10369-Ackley-St-Rapid-Riv...
- heavyset_go 4y ago
  Houses can be cheaper in Rust Belt areas, but often for a reason. Sometimes that reason is that over the last ~20 years, people have been working hard to escape those areas due to stagnant or failing economies. One of your listings, for Ladysmith, Wisconsin in particular, has been dropping in population by roughly 10% each decade since 2000. Same goes for the house in Nebraska, the town it's in has been dropping in population at about the same rate since 1980. It might work out if you can do remote work for the rest of you career, but some of those listings, like a different one from Michigan, are for homes in towns with about only 1,700 people total in a 160 sq. mile area and with a per capita income of about $18,000 a year. Your options for work dwindle really fast if you lose your job after moving there.
- andsoitis 4y ago
  The first house in in zip 50112, which has a 90% higher crime rate than other cities and town in Iowa.
  - dredmorbius 4y ago
    Source? That's a highly rural ZIP Code whose principle town is home to Grinnell College. That hardly strikes me as likely to be a consistently high-crime area, most especially of violent crime.