3 ms·

The ruling explicitly recognizes that the athletic advantage of men over women persists even if their current testosterone levels are equalized, because of the

The ruling explicitly recognizes that the athletic advantage of men over women persists even if their current testosterone levels are equalized, because of the man’s developmental history. There is no problem in having separate competitions for men and women, as we’ve had for so long, unless people decide to create contrived issues around it. Along with this ruling is a decision to examine the creation of an open (third) category for everyone, which I think makes sense.

bloak 4y ago
But how do you think "men" and "open" categories would work together in a sport in which men have a significant advantage? If you let people enter both then they could end up being boringly similar to each other, while neither of them generates the excitement of being the main competition, and if you force people to choose one or the other then you might end up with a weird situation in which the best two players agree to avoid each other and other players choose ... how exactly? So I would guess that having two categories, "open" and "bona fide female", would make more sense. Also, in tennis, do you call the "open" category "open" or is that too confusing as the word "open" is already used in a different sense?
- leephillips 4y ago
  I guess these are some of the issues that the committee examining the possibility of an open category are considering. I would think it makes most sense to require people to choose, and not compete in both the open and one of the sex categories. Whether people get excited about the “open” competition is up to them. I think it’s pretty easy to predict that it will be populated by men like Lia Thomas who don’t want to compete in the men’s competition, and there won’t be many people who care about it.
necovek 4y ago
Gender divide in sports is there to increase participation by giving a chance to women to win as well. There are smaller classes of people who naturally don't fit in either male or female category (eg someone mentioned chromosomes, so people with XXY are usually almost male but not quite): there is nothing contrived about it. Similarly, people converting have their own sporting characteristics, and we should work to find ways to include them as well. As such, we need classes that distinguish between different levels of de facto biological advantage: a completely open category would still be dominated by males. I don't understand why would people find different martial arts weight classes normal, and not even entertain the thought that this might apply to other sports as it pertains to other genetic and acquired traits.
- Elhana 4y ago
  Martial arts also have male/female separation first, only then weight classes, so your argument doesn't apply.
  - major505 4y ago
    Specially because people could die in a mix gender martial arts tournament.
  - necovek 4y ago
    Uhm, it's an example how we recognize more than just gender as biological predisposition in sports to allow "inferior" sportspeople to compete, so I don't see how it doesn't. The fact that those are orthogonal today matters exactly how (when talking about introducing more granularity at the first, gender level)?
blippage 4y ago
> Along with this ruling is a decision to examine the creation of an open (third) category for everyone, which I think makes sense. The general public are unlikely to take this seriously. Who is going to compete in this third category? Women are unlikely to compete in it because they stand to be outclassed by any men entering the category. Men will be similarly unlikely to compete because there is likely to be higher prestige in men-only competitions. The whole thing will revolve around game theory, where every potential participant will weigh up the likelihood of winning, personal pride, and monetary or publicity rewards. What you'll end up with is a bunch of transgenders participating with a minute niche following. Then they'll start complaining about "cis privilege", or whatever, because nobody (and hence lucrative sponsorship deals) will take them seriously.

bloak 4y ago

But how do you think "men" and "open" categories would work together in a sport in which men have a significant advantage? If you let people enter both then they could end up being boringly similar to each other, while neither of them generates the excitement of being the main competition, and if you force people to choose one or the other then you might end up with a weird situation in which the best two players agree to avoid each other and other players choose ... how exactly? So I would guess that having two categories, "open" and "bona fide female", would make more sense. Also, in tennis, do you call the "open" category "open" or is that too confusing as the word "open" is already used in a different sense?

leephillips 4y ago
I guess these are some of the issues that the committee examining the possibility of an open category are considering. I would think it makes most sense to require people to choose, and not compete in both the open and one of the sex categories. Whether people get excited about the “open” competition is up to them. I think it’s pretty easy to predict that it will be populated by men like Lia Thomas who don’t want to compete in the men’s competition, and there won’t be many people who care about it.

necovek 4y ago

Gender divide in sports is there to increase participation by giving a chance to women to win as well. There are smaller classes of people who naturally don't fit in either male or female category (eg someone mentioned chromosomes, so people with XXY are usually almost male but not quite): there is nothing contrived about it. Similarly, people converting have their own sporting characteristics, and we should work to find ways to include them as well. As such, we need classes that distinguish between different levels of de facto biological advantage: a completely open category would still be dominated by males. I don't understand why would people find different martial arts weight classes normal, and not even entertain the thought that this might apply to other sports as it pertains to other genetic and acquired traits.

Elhana 4y ago
Martial arts also have male/female separation first, only then weight classes, so your argument doesn't apply.
- major505 4y ago
  Specially because people could die in a mix gender martial arts tournament.
- necovek 4y ago
  Uhm, it's an example how we recognize more than just gender as biological predisposition in sports to allow "inferior" sportspeople to compete, so I don't see how it doesn't. The fact that those are orthogonal today matters exactly how (when talking about introducing more granularity at the first, gender level)?

blippage 4y ago

> Along with this ruling is a decision to examine the creation of an open (third) category for everyone, which I think makes sense. The general public are unlikely to take this seriously. Who is going to compete in this third category? Women are unlikely to compete in it because they stand to be outclassed by any men entering the category. Men will be similarly unlikely to compete because there is likely to be higher prestige in men-only competitions. The whole thing will revolve around game theory, where every potential participant will weigh up the likelihood of winning, personal pride, and monetary or publicity rewards. What you'll end up with is a bunch of transgenders participating with a minute niche following. Then they'll start complaining about "cis privilege", or whatever, because nobody (and hence lucrative sponsorship deals) will take them seriously.