7 ms·

Four Tet wins royalty battle over streaming music

112 points by mindracer 4y ago

iamben 4y ago
13.5%? Jeez. No wonder so many 'signed' artists have a problem with streaming. And no wonder so many young artists are choosing to self release. We really are getting to a point where labels need to properly prove their worth.
- AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
  There was probably a time when a label was useful as both distributor and curator of a particular kind of music, and that could've been useful. Like, I dunno, 4AD records. But, having been born at the tail end of the 80s, I personally have never found labels to be anything more than an annoyance. Like: "Oh, you can't buy this band's first two albums anywhere because the label is pissed at the band for leaving and won't re-release them." I can think of maybe one or two smallish labels that I actually follow on Bandcamp because they specialize in niches I like, and there's a good chance that whatever they release will at least warrant a trial listen from me. But those are few and far between.
  - egypturnash 4y ago
    Label-as-curator is definitely a thing until the label gets too big. There were a few times in the nineties and noughties where I bought a sampler CD from a label because it had a track by an act I liked, and it would introduce me to other acts on that label who I went on to buy more stuff from. If a label owns subsidiary labels it is probably too big for this to work any more. If any of those subsidiary labels have multiple imprints of their own then it's definitely too big for this to mean anything, "Warner Brothers released this" tells you next to nothing about what to expect.
colinmhayes 4y ago
> The difference is far from academic because most artists receive 50% of the royalties for a licence but a much lower figure, typically between 12% and 22%, for a sale. Hard to comprehend how a label can seriously claim they deserve 86.5% of streaming revenue. Not like they sunk any considerable money into Four Tet, just sat back and watched the money roll in. What a ripoff, that's 2.2 million streams to make $1000 on spotify.
qazwse_ 4y ago
> After the advent of iTunes and Spotify, labels often argued that downloads and streams should be counted as sales. I'm guessing this is still the case for many artists. How can they argue this at all? Who is the sale to? I doubt the record labels would say that I purchased a song after listening to it on a streaming service.
jamal-kumar 4y ago
For anyone who hasn't listened yet, Four Tet is really good. A lot of base in very organic sounding samples from analogue instruments like hand pans, chimes, xylophones, steel pan drums and similar kind of percussion but it's still pretty much techno/house electronic music (not tech house) [1]. His newer stuff [2] is starting to sound a bit more synth based but it's still really top work. I'm glad they're doing something with fighting to get proper compensation, the industry really needs to check themselves in terms of respect for who's out there doing the hard creative work. Way to be a repellent to talent, Domino Records! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWInZ4N6C2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWInZ4N6C2g [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6T9Q5mUYqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6T9Q5mUYqc
- smcl 4y ago
  Yeah music like Four Tet is really nice for coding. I can also suggest Arms And Sleepers if that's your thing.
  - BonoboIO 4y ago
    Thx for the recommendation. Arms and sleepers is really nice. I realized that I like a song from four tet (lush) already. I think you would like Bonobo and Tycho for coding too
    - jamal-kumar 4y ago
      When it comes to writing code I find the best is honestly just listening to mixes so that I am not too distracted trying to pick out music. Usually I have to remind myself to listen to it again when I'm not working to get track names though because that can be a real mission sometimes
      - HKH2 4y ago
        I have a playlist system that is primarily controlled with 2 buttons - pause/resume and skip. No UI is needed. Tracks are automatically selected by their value combined with how little they have been played. The faster a track is skipped, the more it will be devalued. Tracks that are under the value threshold get automatically skipped. A track that doesn't get skipped will keep its value, but if it gets played too much, other less-played tracks will have priority. I have a button to show me a track name if I really want to know (or I can look at the logs), otherwise all words (lyrics, track names, file names etc.) are ignored. If I find a track does have lyrics/speaking in it, I will tag it as such and move on.
vr46 4y ago
Random thoughts: At various points in the past, record labels were the ones taking the big risks and getting the big paybacks, just like any business, fronting the funds for expensive studio time and the people to run them. And many bands took personal offence at this, and continue to do, despite being the beneficiaries of the whole sordid industry at the time. Now that the costs of production and distribution have dropped in certain areas - there’s still things that you need Abbey Road Studio One and 96 expert musicians for - artists expect a fairer deal. But who decides what the value was of the label’s work in the first place? If they did all the promotion and legwork to get the artist into the limelight and keep them there, does or doesn’t that work deserve perpetual royalties? I don’t know why streaming rights and licensing weren’t newly negotiated deals but I guess for artists like FourTet who arrived when they did, downloads and streaming were covered by a ‘digital’ clause. Labels are full of people who love music and work their nuts off promoting musicians, building their web and social presences, getting them booked onto support slots, playlists, radio shows, festivals, cleaning up after them, and championing them, but labels are also cynical and heartless and will drop an act without compunction if sales don’t happen. I’ve hundreds of brilliant promo albums on my shelves from my days on student radio and nearly all those acts released nothing more. Given the scale of competition and number of acts, I have no idea how anyone could be a sales success without a central organization coordinating things. I don’t know much about Taylor Swift but is she a huge success without the involvement of a label?
- jamal-kumar 4y ago
  I'm noticing a lot of my favorite artists right now who do mixes of other people's work have more and more stuff that when I look at where I can get an HQ copy, it's ending up on Bandcamp more than Beatport these days, which is really cool. Not only is there more of a feeling that they're getting an equitable cut, it's also usually a lot more reasonably priced and gives options like limited edition LPs or cassette tape to get the music on.
  - vr46 4y ago
    Bandcamp is really great, although getting physical copies from outside the UK is still cheaper at the local record store. I also feel that it’s a good way to funnel money to the artist, although I’m concerned that Epic has bought them.
Rastonbury 4y ago
Wow Four Tet is a stalwart in his scene and only made £10k per year from streaming. Wonder how 'big' you need to be the make median pay
ok_computer 4y ago
I’m happy to hear it went his way. He’s deserving and I was surprised Domino pulled his back catalog in the dispute. I enjoyed his back catalog and hope he sees income for it.

112 points by mindracer 4y ago

13.5%? Jeez. No wonder so many 'signed' artists have a problem with streaming. And no wonder so many young artists are choosing to self release. We really are getting to a point where labels need to properly prove their worth.

AdmiralAsshat 4y ago
There was probably a time when a label was useful as both distributor and curator of a particular kind of music, and that could've been useful. Like, I dunno, 4AD records. But, having been born at the tail end of the 80s, I personally have never found labels to be anything more than an annoyance. Like: "Oh, you can't buy this band's first two albums anywhere because the label is pissed at the band for leaving and won't re-release them." I can think of maybe one or two smallish labels that I actually follow on Bandcamp because they specialize in niches I like, and there's a good chance that whatever they release will at least warrant a trial listen from me. But those are few and far between.
- egypturnash 4y ago
  Label-as-curator is definitely a thing until the label gets too big. There were a few times in the nineties and noughties where I bought a sampler CD from a label because it had a track by an act I liked, and it would introduce me to other acts on that label who I went on to buy more stuff from. If a label owns subsidiary labels it is probably too big for this to work any more. If any of those subsidiary labels have multiple imprints of their own then it's definitely too big for this to mean anything, "Warner Brothers released this" tells you next to nothing about what to expect.

colinmhayes 4y ago

> The difference is far from academic because most artists receive 50% of the royalties for a licence but a much lower figure, typically between 12% and 22%, for a sale. Hard to comprehend how a label can seriously claim they deserve 86.5% of streaming revenue. Not like they sunk any considerable money into Four Tet, just sat back and watched the money roll in. What a ripoff, that's 2.2 million streams to make $1000 on spotify.

qazwse_ 4y ago

> After the advent of iTunes and Spotify, labels often argued that downloads and streams should be counted as sales. I'm guessing this is still the case for many artists. How can they argue this at all? Who is the sale to? I doubt the record labels would say that I purchased a song after listening to it on a streaming service.

jamal-kumar 4y ago

For anyone who hasn't listened yet, Four Tet is really good. A lot of base in very organic sounding samples from analogue instruments like hand pans, chimes, xylophones, steel pan drums and similar kind of percussion but it's still pretty much techno/house electronic music (not tech house) [1]. His newer stuff [2] is starting to sound a bit more synth based but it's still really top work. I'm glad they're doing something with fighting to get proper compensation, the industry really needs to check themselves in terms of respect for who's out there doing the hard creative work. Way to be a repellent to talent, Domino Records! [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWInZ4N6C2g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWInZ4N6C2g [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6T9Q5mUYqc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6T9Q5mUYqc

smcl 4y ago
Yeah music like Four Tet is really nice for coding. I can also suggest Arms And Sleepers if that's your thing.
- BonoboIO 4y ago
  Thx for the recommendation. Arms and sleepers is really nice. I realized that I like a song from four tet (lush) already. I think you would like Bonobo and Tycho for coding too
  - jamal-kumar 4y ago
    When it comes to writing code I find the best is honestly just listening to mixes so that I am not too distracted trying to pick out music. Usually I have to remind myself to listen to it again when I'm not working to get track names though because that can be a real mission sometimes
    - HKH2 4y ago
      I have a playlist system that is primarily controlled with 2 buttons - pause/resume and skip. No UI is needed. Tracks are automatically selected by their value combined with how little they have been played. The faster a track is skipped, the more it will be devalued. Tracks that are under the value threshold get automatically skipped. A track that doesn't get skipped will keep its value, but if it gets played too much, other less-played tracks will have priority. I have a button to show me a track name if I really want to know (or I can look at the logs), otherwise all words (lyrics, track names, file names etc.) are ignored. If I find a track does have lyrics/speaking in it, I will tag it as such and move on.

vr46 4y ago

Random thoughts: At various points in the past, record labels were the ones taking the big risks and getting the big paybacks, just like any business, fronting the funds for expensive studio time and the people to run them. And many bands took personal offence at this, and continue to do, despite being the beneficiaries of the whole sordid industry at the time. Now that the costs of production and distribution have dropped in certain areas - there’s still things that you need Abbey Road Studio One and 96 expert musicians for - artists expect a fairer deal. But who decides what the value was of the label’s work in the first place? If they did all the promotion and legwork to get the artist into the limelight and keep them there, does or doesn’t that work deserve perpetual royalties? I don’t know why streaming rights and licensing weren’t newly negotiated deals but I guess for artists like FourTet who arrived when they did, downloads and streaming were covered by a ‘digital’ clause. Labels are full of people who love music and work their nuts off promoting musicians, building their web and social presences, getting them booked onto support slots, playlists, radio shows, festivals, cleaning up after them, and championing them, but labels are also cynical and heartless and will drop an act without compunction if sales don’t happen. I’ve hundreds of brilliant promo albums on my shelves from my days on student radio and nearly all those acts released nothing more. Given the scale of competition and number of acts, I have no idea how anyone could be a sales success without a central organization coordinating things. I don’t know much about Taylor Swift but is she a huge success without the involvement of a label?

jamal-kumar 4y ago
I'm noticing a lot of my favorite artists right now who do mixes of other people's work have more and more stuff that when I look at where I can get an HQ copy, it's ending up on Bandcamp more than Beatport these days, which is really cool. Not only is there more of a feeling that they're getting an equitable cut, it's also usually a lot more reasonably priced and gives options like limited edition LPs or cassette tape to get the music on.
- vr46 4y ago
  Bandcamp is really great, although getting physical copies from outside the UK is still cheaper at the local record store. I also feel that it’s a good way to funnel money to the artist, although I’m concerned that Epic has bought them.

Rastonbury 4y ago

Wow Four Tet is a stalwart in his scene and only made £10k per year from streaming. Wonder how 'big' you need to be the make median pay

ok_computer 4y ago

I’m happy to hear it went his way. He’s deserving and I was surprised Domino pulled his back catalog in the dispute. I enjoyed his back catalog and hope he sees income for it.