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I think what you say here is at least mostly true. But all it shows is that you can never prove that an entity apart from yourself is conscious. In other word
by tgflynn 4y ago
I think what you say here is at least mostly true. But all it shows is that you can never prove that an entity apart from yourself is conscious. In other words it shows that solipsism cannot be logically refuted. But that is something that has been known for hundreds if not thousands of years.
But what if I ask YOU right now: "Are YOU experiencing something instead of nothing. Is YOU'RE current experience different from what it would be if YOU were under general anesthesia."
If you're answer to these questions is yes then YOU are experiencing qualia. Of course your answer proves nothing to me or any other third party. But it should prove something to YOU.
- bccdee 4y agoShould it? If I can't help but believe that I am experiencing actual qualia regardless of whether I am or not, then the fact that I believe I am experiencing qualia doesn't prove anything.
- tgflynn 4y agoIt isn't about belief and it certainly isn't about behavior (ie. what you say). It is about the actual experience of being. If that means nothing to you, I don't think there's anything I can say that would change your mind. In this domain all language can do is evoke recognition for someone who already experiences what is being evoked but doesn't recognize it. Only you can take the final step to realizing that yes consciousness does exist, no matter how much sophistry some philosophers will engage in to try to deny it.
- bccdee 4y agoBut if you must feel that you experience a unique and ineffable "redness" when you perceive red regardless of whether that redness exists or not, how can you take that feeling as evidence that this ineffable redness exists? I don't think that's a valid justification—I think this suggests we have to be agnostic as to whether qualia truly exist or not if we're judging purely by our own senses.
- tgflynn 4y agoWhat if you take something more concrete than "redness", like pain ? Let's say you stub your toe or burn your finger. In that moment is there any room for doubt that pain exists ?
- bccdee 4y agoOf course there is. We may feel strongly that an illusion is real, but that doesn't make it any less an illusion. The computer from my example would react very strongly to pain, and certainly it would believe that pain has a unique and distinct quality to it making it different from any other sensation, but that doesn't mean that that quality exists in some special metaphysical way. It is just a mind examining the abstractions which make up its own senses and going, "wow, these are indeed abstract."
- tgflynn 4y agoThere are many things one may be deluded about but the fact that one's subjective reality is not empty is not one of them.
- bccdee 4y agoWhy? If we're logically guaranteed to hold belief X independently of whether X is true or not, it's irrational to say "yeah but I KNOW X is true. I can just tell." You would believe that no matter what; how can you trust that belief?