5 ms·

I don't have time to implement TDD.

alttag 15y ago
The counter argument is, of course, that you don't have time not to. Many programmers who begin TDD have the same concern as you. Many of them find that over time they're more productive over the long haul with TDD. It takes a little while to arrive at that realization.
- illumen 15y ago
  Depends on the project.
  - vrde 15y ago
    Please be specific. In my experience, even if you are building a quick'n'dirty prototype, you'll always need to fire up a terminal or run the GUI to interact/play with the prototype you are building, to see if it "works". In this case you may apply a --this is my very own definition-- "lightweight TDD approach" just to automate all the procedures that you normally do to test your prototype. Moreover, since you are writing a test for something that does not exist, it may help you defining better what you want from your experimental code, because you are using your prototype before it even exists :)
    - MortenK 15y ago
      TDD takes longer. Studies conducted at Microsoft and HP (or possibly IBM), found that development time with TDD was 10-30% longer. That's probably minimum, and in high degree determined by the TDD experience level of the team members. The massive upside is that there is much less defects in the end product (think it was 50-80% in the study, but can't recall exactly). Depending on the project, the extra time needed, might or might not be worth it. Take a somewhat complex web app, that is used for a marketing campaign. It has a life time of only 2 months. In this case it does not make sense to use TDD, as the lower defect rate and "future-proofing" qualities, might very well not be worth an increased budget.
      - gry 15y ago
        The reference: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/nagappan-100609.aspx http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/nagappan-1...
      - alttag 15y ago
        Yes. My experience with TDD is that it did save time, but not necessarily in initial development. The long-term effect of fewer defects combined with the capability for a higher release velocity is a net savings. As a counter example, I'm working with a company that uses TDD for their current development, but employees work on a platform with little test coverage. As a consequence of lacking unit tests, they're only able to release a few versions each year because their manual testing burden is so high (estimated by one manager as about half of the cost of a release). They've found that TDD for their new features doesn't escalate the QA cost as significantly as not doing it. Bottom line: it's a little more time up front, but they've found it to be a long-term gain.
  - nahname 15y ago
    I'm curious, are you against unit testing in some scenarios or just TDD? I'm sure we can think up some conditions where the cost won't be returned. Is that all you mean?
- arctangent 15y ago
  I'm prepared to concede that there may be some long-term benefits to be gained, e.g. in reducing the amount of maintenance work carried out over the lifetime of a project. However, writing detailed tests up front would completely destroy my "flow" when implementing features in a web application. It would certainly take me more time because there is going to be a large increase in the amount of code to write. I simply don't have the time available to do this. I get a few weeks to knock out an application and then I'm on to the next thing!
wazoox 15y ago
TDD is particularly valuable (I'd even say unavoidable) when writing modules, libraries and so on. It's extremely helpful on some tough program parts that aren't enough defined in behaviour by the spec. Writing tests first in these case will avoid you countless traps, particularly in "the other 90%" as mentioned in the Cargill's law: "The first 90 percent of the code accounts for the first 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent of the code accounts for the other 90 percent of the development time." —Tom Cargill, Bell Labs
- arctangent 15y ago
  I can see how TDD could be useful for writing a relatively static piece of code, especially code that is likely to be reused by a lot of people. But I develop web applications in 1-week sprints for my stakeholders and they're likely to change their mind about what they want at short notice. In these circumstances it simply doesn't make sense to write tests up front. I don't even have time to write a lot of tests when I'm done :-(
stonemetal 15y ago
How long do you spend manually testing? I find that developing automated testing(note I don't really care about TDD just unit testing and automated testing.) takes a little longer to get setup and running. Subsequent testing is cheaper because regression testing is free, and test code can be reused when developing new tests.

The counter argument is, of course, that you don't have time not to. Many programmers who begin TDD have the same concern as you. Many of them find that over time they're more productive over the long haul with TDD. It takes a little while to arrive at that realization.

illumen 15y ago
Depends on the project.
- vrde 15y ago
  Please be specific. In my experience, even if you are building a quick'n'dirty prototype, you'll always need to fire up a terminal or run the GUI to interact/play with the prototype you are building, to see if it "works". In this case you may apply a --this is my very own definition-- "lightweight TDD approach" just to automate all the procedures that you normally do to test your prototype. Moreover, since you are writing a test for something that does not exist, it may help you defining better what you want from your experimental code, because you are using your prototype before it even exists :)
  - MortenK 15y ago
    TDD takes longer. Studies conducted at Microsoft and HP (or possibly IBM), found that development time with TDD was 10-30% longer. That's probably minimum, and in high degree determined by the TDD experience level of the team members. The massive upside is that there is much less defects in the end product (think it was 50-80% in the study, but can't recall exactly). Depending on the project, the extra time needed, might or might not be worth it. Take a somewhat complex web app, that is used for a marketing campaign. It has a life time of only 2 months. In this case it does not make sense to use TDD, as the lower defect rate and "future-proofing" qualities, might very well not be worth an increased budget.
    - gry 15y ago
      The reference: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/nagappan-100609.aspx http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/news/features/nagappan-1...
    - alttag 15y ago
      Yes. My experience with TDD is that it did save time, but not necessarily in initial development. The long-term effect of fewer defects combined with the capability for a higher release velocity is a net savings. As a counter example, I'm working with a company that uses TDD for their current development, but employees work on a platform with little test coverage. As a consequence of lacking unit tests, they're only able to release a few versions each year because their manual testing burden is so high (estimated by one manager as about half of the cost of a release). They've found that TDD for their new features doesn't escalate the QA cost as significantly as not doing it. Bottom line: it's a little more time up front, but they've found it to be a long-term gain.
- nahname 15y ago
  I'm curious, are you against unit testing in some scenarios or just TDD? I'm sure we can think up some conditions where the cost won't be returned. Is that all you mean?
arctangent 15y ago
I'm prepared to concede that there may be some long-term benefits to be gained, e.g. in reducing the amount of maintenance work carried out over the lifetime of a project. However, writing detailed tests up front would completely destroy my "flow" when implementing features in a web application. It would certainly take me more time because there is going to be a large increase in the amount of code to write. I simply don't have the time available to do this. I get a few weeks to knock out an application and then I'm on to the next thing!

wazoox 15y ago

TDD is particularly valuable (I'd even say unavoidable) when writing modules, libraries and so on. It's extremely helpful on some tough program parts that aren't enough defined in behaviour by the spec. Writing tests first in these case will avoid you countless traps, particularly in "the other 90%" as mentioned in the Cargill's law: "The first 90 percent of the code accounts for the first 90 percent of the development time. The remaining 10 percent of the code accounts for the other 90 percent of the development time." —Tom Cargill, Bell Labs

arctangent 15y ago
I can see how TDD could be useful for writing a relatively static piece of code, especially code that is likely to be reused by a lot of people. But I develop web applications in 1-week sprints for my stakeholders and they're likely to change their mind about what they want at short notice. In these circumstances it simply doesn't make sense to write tests up front. I don't even have time to write a lot of tests when I'm done :-(

stonemetal 15y ago

How long do you spend manually testing? I find that developing automated testing(note I don't really care about TDD just unit testing and automated testing.) takes a little longer to get setup and running. Subsequent testing is cheaper because regression testing is free, and test code can be reused when developing new tests.