3 ms·

I've been a meat eater 40+ years. I wrote that at least B12 supplementation is necessary, you want to ignore that. Maybe I was not clear enough, but then, Engli

by myshpa 4y ago

I've been a meat eater 40+ years. I wrote that at least B12 supplementation is necessary, you want to ignore that. Maybe I was not clear enough, but then, English is not my first language. > I didn't reply to this I've just tried to extract the core of my position, and of yours. Sorry if I was not clear enough (I don't like to spend my time in discussions, so I'm maybe too hasty in formulating my comments). > Plants are enough (again, don't forget your B12 vegan supplements). Does it mean you don't need to supplement? Doesn't it mean you may eat only plant-based diet, with B12 supplementation, and then be healthy? Maybe my english is worse than i thought. > You have no interest in a curious and intelligent conversation. All you want is to propagandise your vegan ideology. If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen? > "Most vegans" ... risk heart disease, stroke and pregnancy complications! "Most vegans". Most! Because they don't get enough B12! Hence the supplementation. Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range). > Well, why do you need supplements when your diet is healthy? Because B12 in the meat is from earth bacteria (ideally, or from vitamins the animals are fed). We wash our food, animals don't. But we can rely on our marvelous production capabilities, and produce required supplements from vegan, non-animal sources, directly for human population. With veganism on the rise there is more and more fortified foods available, so I suppose it will be less and less problem in the future. > Because plants are not enough. You need a balanced diet to stay healthy and if you cut meat and animal products from your diet your are putting your health at risk. No, you are not putting your health at risk. There is where my beef with your position is. Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier. > Irresponsible, dishonest, fanatical liars. You seem very angry, determined in your ways, and nitpicky. I dont' have time to discuss this further with you. Have a nice day!

cheese_goddess 4y ago
> If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen? My handle is "cheese_goddess" and I'm an amateur cheesemaker, you puerile buffoon. > Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier. You are misinformed: Preventive Effects of Dairy Products on Dementia and the Underlying Mechanisms > Alongside the rapid population aging occurring worldwide, the prevention of age-related memory decline and dementia has become a high priority. Dairy products have many physiological effects owing to their contents of lactic acid bacteria and the fatty acids and peptides generated during their fermentation. In particular, several recent studies have elucidated the effects of fermented dairy products on cognitive function. Epidemiological and clinical evidence has indicated that fermented dairy products have preventive effects against dementia, including Alzheimer’s disease. Recent preclinical studies have identified individual molecules generated during fermentation that are responsible for those preventive effects. Oleamide and dehydroergosterol have been identified as the agents responsible for reducing microglial inflammatory responses and neurotoxicity. In this review, the protective effects of fermented dairy products and their components on cognitive function, the mechanisms underlying those effects, and the prospects for their future clinical development will be discussed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073537/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073537/ Are chicken eggs good or bad for my cholesterol? > Chicken eggs are an affordable source of protein and other nutrients. They're also naturally high in cholesterol. But the cholesterol in eggs doesn't seem to raise cholesterol levels the way some other foods, such as those high in trans fats and saturated fats, do. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/cholesterol/faq-20058468 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-ch... Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets > Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16441942/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16441942/ ("Similar" is not "better". I'm also not a native English speaker and that's no excuse to not be able to read). How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence > Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet... Vegan diets are adding to malnutrition in wealthy countries https://theconversation.com/vegan-diets-are-adding-to-malnutrition-in-wealthy-countries-107555 https://theconversation.com/vegan-diets-are-adding-to-malnut... Is a vegan diet healthier? Five reasons why we can’t tell for sure https://theconversation.com/is-a-vegan-diet-healthier-five-reasons-why-we-cant-tell-for-sure-152131 https://theconversation.com/is-a-vegan-diet-healthier-five-r... Why we shouldn’t all be vegan > And, if vegetarian diets show that traditional markers for heart disease, such as “total cholesterol”, are usually improved, this is not the case for the more predictive (and thus valuable) markers such as the triglyceride/HDL (or “good” cholesterol) ratio, which even tend to deteriorate. https://theconversation.com/why-we-shouldnt-all-be-vegan-109308 https://theconversation.com/why-we-shouldnt-all-be-vegan-109... > Have a nice day! Aw, you too! And don't forget your B12 supplements! Or else your brain will shrink.
cheese_goddess 4y ago
> Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range). What is your doctor measuring? > A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMA testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans. https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...

by myshpa 4y ago

cheese_goddess 4y ago

> If there is any propaganda, it's of meat & dairy industry. Any connection, cheese queen? My handle is "cheese_goddess" and I'm an amateur cheesemaker, you puerile buffoon. > Western diet is linked to a lot of health problems. A lot of those problems is linked to meat/dairy intake. For example, milk/cheese is linked to alzheimer/parkinson, meat is full of herbicides/pesticides/omega-6, eggs are full of cholesterol ... you're deliberaly ignoring that with B12 supplementation a plant based diet is healthier. You are misinformed: Preventive Effects of Dairy Products on Dementia and the Underlying Mechanisms > Alongside the rapid population aging occurring worldwide, the prevention of age-related memory decline and dementia has become a high priority. Dairy products have many physiological effects owing to their contents of lactic acid bacteria and the fatty acids and peptides generated during their fermentation. In particular, several recent studies have elucidated the effects of fermented dairy products on cognitive function. Epidemiological and clinical evidence has indicated that fermented dairy products have preventive effects against dementia, including Alzheimer’s disease. Recent preclinical studies have identified individual molecules generated during fermentation that are responsible for those preventive effects. Oleamide and dehydroergosterol have been identified as the agents responsible for reducing microglial inflammatory responses and neurotoxicity. In this review, the protective effects of fermented dairy products and their components on cognitive function, the mechanisms underlying those effects, and the prospects for their future clinical development will be discussed. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073537/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6073537/ Are chicken eggs good or bad for my cholesterol? > Chicken eggs are an affordable source of protein and other nutrients. They're also naturally high in cholesterol. But the cholesterol in eggs doesn't seem to raise cholesterol levels the way some other foods, such as those high in trans fats and saturated fats, do. https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-cholesterol/expert-answers/cholesterol/faq-20058468 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/high-blood-ch... Health effects of vegetarian and vegan diets > Overall, the data suggest that the health of Western vegetarians is good and similar to that of comparable non-vegetarians. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16441942/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/16441942/ ("Similar" is not "better". I'm also not a native English speaker and that's no excuse to not be able to read). How a vegan diet could affect your intelligence > Later in life, the amount of B12 in a person’s blood has been directly correlated with their IQ. In the elderly, one study found that the brains of those with lower B12 were six times more likely to be shrinking. https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet-could-affect-your-intelligence https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200127-how-a-vegan-diet... Vegan diets are adding to malnutrition in wealthy countries https://theconversation.com/vegan-diets-are-adding-to-malnutrition-in-wealthy-countries-107555 https://theconversation.com/vegan-diets-are-adding-to-malnut... Is a vegan diet healthier? Five reasons why we can’t tell for sure https://theconversation.com/is-a-vegan-diet-healthier-five-reasons-why-we-cant-tell-for-sure-152131 https://theconversation.com/is-a-vegan-diet-healthier-five-r... Why we shouldn’t all be vegan > And, if vegetarian diets show that traditional markers for heart disease, such as “total cholesterol”, are usually improved, this is not the case for the more predictive (and thus valuable) markers such as the triglyceride/HDL (or “good” cholesterol) ratio, which even tend to deteriorate. https://theconversation.com/why-we-shouldnt-all-be-vegan-109308 https://theconversation.com/why-we-shouldnt-all-be-vegan-109... > Have a nice day! Aw, you too! And don't forget your B12 supplements! Or else your brain will shrink.

cheese_goddess 4y ago

> Me & my wife have been supplementing from the start, several years now, and take regular blood tests. No problems what so ever. My doctor quipped that he've never seen such optimal blood test as mine is (all values in the optimal range). What is your doctor measuring? > A blood B12 level measurement is a very unreliable test for vegans, particularly for vegans using any form of algae. Algae and some other plant foods contain B12-analogues (false B12) that can imitate true B12 in blood tests while actually interfering with B12 metabolism. Blood counts are also unreliable as high folate intakes suppress the anaemia symptoms of B12 deficiency that can be detected by blood counts. Blood homocysteine testing is more reliable, with levels less than 10 micromol/litre being desirable. The most specific test for B12 status is MMA testing. If this is in the normal range in blood (<370 nmol/L) or urine (less than 4 mcg /mg creatinine) then your body has enough B12. Many doctors still rely on blood B12 levels and blood counts. These are not adequate, especially in vegans. https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/nutrients/vitamin-b12/what-every-vegan-should-know-about-vitamin-b12 https://www.vegansociety.com/resources/nutrition-and-health/...