4 ms·

As someone who has lived long-term in both countries, I think that while the Swiss system is absolutely better than the UK system, people in the UK are a bit _t

As someone who has lived long-term in both countries, I think that while the Swiss system is absolutely better than the UK system, people in the UK are a bit _too_ self-deprecating about the UK rail system, which is, all things considered, relatively good. Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.

CaptainZapp 4y ago
> which is, all things considered, relatively good It really depends on the line and the company. Virgin from London to Manchester is a reasonably good experience. Anything Northern (as a for example) makes me fume when I even think of taking any of their trains. Also, prices for spontaneous bookings are outrageous. Even compared to Switzerland.
martinald 4y ago
It will be as of next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways.
- vladharbuz 4y ago
  How did I miss this? Thank you for linking it, I'm very curious how things will turn out!
iggldiggl 4y ago
> Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey. Despite some shortcomings in that area, at least in the UK they did keep a common ticketing system with through-ticketing (and integral passenger rights for the whole of your journey) between operators even through the whole of the privatisation saga. In Germany they've mostly ignored that topic and we're mostly only saved by the fact most long distance trains are still operated by DB, and for international journeys it's equally bad, with often no through-tickets available.
- vladharbuz 4y ago
  I have to admit I don't fully understand the issue you're talking about, but I'd like to find out more. Could you give an example? I've booked trains entirely via DB from Basel Bad Bf to Copenhagen, for example, but perhaps you mean something else?
  - bobthepanda 4y ago
    I think they mean if you wanted to book a multi-leg trip of which only one leg is DB operated, it's a mess to coordinate and buy for different operators. (I have no experience with this, but that's my interpretation of the comment.)
    - iggldiggl 4y ago
      Some examples: - Cologne – Bruxelles is served by both DB and Thalys. In principle both operators run in alternating hours and taken together you get an hourly service [1] between the two cities. Unfortunately for quite a few years now, Thalys has withdrawn its through-ticketing arrangements and so you can no longer buy through-tickets involving Thalys and a connection on the German side. If you buy the tickets separately, you've got no guarantees that your ticket will remain valid in case of a missed connection. (Thalys still participates in Railteam and HOTNAT, but that only applies to connection between high-speed long-distance trains, so if your connection involves some other kind of train, too bad). - It also means (apart from the fact that Thalys requires mandatory reservations) they're semi-useless for domestic journeys (beyond Cologne, Thalys trains usually continue through to Dortmund), because in the case of delays or cancellations your ticket won't be valid on alternative DB services. If you're lucky they'll take you on a goodwill basis, otherwise you'd have to either wait for the next Thalys (only every two hours and with some larger gaps!) or pay for a DB ticket out of your own pocket and claim the money back afterwards. - The services between Paris and Germany via the LGV Est are operated in cooperation between SNCF and DB, so luckily both operators will sell tickets for all services on that line, no matter whether they're TGV or ICE services. It's still not perfect however, because (at least online?) DB won't sell tickets involving a connection in France, while SNCF won't sell tickets involving a connection in Germany. So if you don't live in one of the larger cities directly served by the through trains (I live near that line in Germany, but technically I first still need to take a local train first for three stops or so) and need to go somewhere in France other than Strasbourg or Paris, you still can't get a through ticket. - Through tickets to Italy are equally problematic. Maybe things are slightly better at a booking office, but at least online playing around with international-bahn.de it looks like the above, i.e. DB/ÖBB won't sell tickets involving connections in Italy and vice versa for FS. - international-bahn.de is happy to sell you combined tickets, but its FAQs also say that those don't necessarily count as a through ticket and in the case of missed connections you might have to depend on the goodwill of the operators involved. - For a few years now it seems that there is at least the so called Agreement on Journey Continuation (see https://www.seat61.com/european-train-travel.htm#AJC https://www.seat61.com/european-train-travel.htm#AJC), which is at least a step in the right direction and is better than nothing, but that agreement is a) still somewhat obscure, and b) effectively still a somewhat more formalised goodwill arrangement, with the exact details and regulations not (!) being made public and remaining a secret among the participating railways c) also doesn't cover all operators, e.g. Thalys doesn't participate, and neither do some of the large open access operators that exist in e.g. Italy, Austria, or the Czech Republic And like I mentioned previously, in Germany technically the law asks all railways to work together in creating fares for through-ticketing (§12 AEG), but especially as far as long distance trains are concerned this obligation seems to have been mostly forgotten. [1] Albeit with some gaps, especially on Thalys's side. I don't know whether those gaps are a recent, Covid-induced phenomenon, or have been present for a while longer.

CaptainZapp 4y ago

> which is, all things considered, relatively good It really depends on the line and the company. Virgin from London to Manchester is a reasonably good experience. Anything Northern (as a for example) makes me fume when I even think of taking any of their trains. Also, prices for spontaneous bookings are outrageous. Even compared to Switzerland.

martinald 4y ago

It will be as of next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways.

vladharbuz 4y ago
How did I miss this? Thank you for linking it, I'm very curious how things will turn out!

iggldiggl 4y ago

> Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey. Despite some shortcomings in that area, at least in the UK they did keep a common ticketing system with through-ticketing (and integral passenger rights for the whole of your journey) between operators even through the whole of the privatisation saga. In Germany they've mostly ignored that topic and we're mostly only saved by the fact most long distance trains are still operated by DB, and for international journeys it's equally bad, with often no through-tickets available.

vladharbuz 4y ago
I have to admit I don't fully understand the issue you're talking about, but I'd like to find out more. Could you give an example? I've booked trains entirely via DB from Basel Bad Bf to Copenhagen, for example, but perhaps you mean something else?
- bobthepanda 4y ago
  I think they mean if you wanted to book a multi-leg trip of which only one leg is DB operated, it's a mess to coordinate and buy for different operators. (I have no experience with this, but that's my interpretation of the comment.)
  - iggldiggl 4y ago
    Some examples: - Cologne – Bruxelles is served by both DB and Thalys. In principle both operators run in alternating hours and taken together you get an hourly service [1] between the two cities. Unfortunately for quite a few years now, Thalys has withdrawn its through-ticketing arrangements and so you can no longer buy through-tickets involving Thalys and a connection on the German side. If you buy the tickets separately, you've got no guarantees that your ticket will remain valid in case of a missed connection. (Thalys still participates in Railteam and HOTNAT, but that only applies to connection between high-speed long-distance trains, so if your connection involves some other kind of train, too bad). - It also means (apart from the fact that Thalys requires mandatory reservations) they're semi-useless for domestic journeys (beyond Cologne, Thalys trains usually continue through to Dortmund), because in the case of delays or cancellations your ticket won't be valid on alternative DB services. If you're lucky they'll take you on a goodwill basis, otherwise you'd have to either wait for the next Thalys (only every two hours and with some larger gaps!) or pay for a DB ticket out of your own pocket and claim the money back afterwards. - The services between Paris and Germany via the LGV Est are operated in cooperation between SNCF and DB, so luckily both operators will sell tickets for all services on that line, no matter whether they're TGV or ICE services. It's still not perfect however, because (at least online?) DB won't sell tickets involving a connection in France, while SNCF won't sell tickets involving a connection in Germany. So if you don't live in one of the larger cities directly served by the through trains (I live near that line in Germany, but technically I first still need to take a local train first for three stops or so) and need to go somewhere in France other than Strasbourg or Paris, you still can't get a through ticket. - Through tickets to Italy are equally problematic. Maybe things are slightly better at a booking office, but at least online playing around with international-bahn.de it looks like the above, i.e. DB/ÖBB won't sell tickets involving connections in Italy and vice versa for FS. - international-bahn.de is happy to sell you combined tickets, but its FAQs also say that those don't necessarily count as a through ticket and in the case of missed connections you might have to depend on the goodwill of the operators involved. - For a few years now it seems that there is at least the so called Agreement on Journey Continuation (see https://www.seat61.com/european-train-travel.htm#AJC https://www.seat61.com/european-train-travel.htm#AJC), which is at least a step in the right direction and is better than nothing, but that agreement is a) still somewhat obscure, and b) effectively still a somewhat more formalised goodwill arrangement, with the exact details and regulations not (!) being made public and remaining a secret among the participating railways c) also doesn't cover all operators, e.g. Thalys doesn't participate, and neither do some of the large open access operators that exist in e.g. Italy, Austria, or the Czech Republic And like I mentioned previously, in Germany technically the law asks all railways to work together in creating fares for through-ticketing (§12 AEG), but especially as far as long distance trains are concerned this obligation seems to have been mostly forgotten. [1] Albeit with some gaps, especially on Thalys's side. I don't know whether those gaps are a recent, Covid-induced phenomenon, or have been present for a while longer.