5 ms·

That's not a bad trade-off to be fair. In the UK tickets (at least inter-city) are also brutally expensive but the system is, to put it kindly, often flakey.

midasuni 4y ago
I had a delay repay for the first time in years a few weeks ago - someone threw themselves under a train at Milton Keynes just before my train was due to leave Euston. I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest - http://brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt=SVR http://brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt...
- Zenst 4y ago
  Shows as £46.70, which still isn't bad, though off-peak is often less painful. If you have to use the train to commute to work, then things start raking up. I live 15 miles outside London and 17 years ago was paying best part of £2k a year just to get into central london and back, today it would be the best part of £3k a year to make that same journey. Using the same tracks, (probably trains) and stations all those years ago. Though more people than back then, which was already at levels upon peak work commutes that saw you playing sardines.
  - CaptainZapp 4y ago
    That almost gets you one year of travel in 2nd class throughout the entire Swiss train network (including public transport in cities).
    - midasuni 4y ago
      Switzerland has a population of less than london. £3k would get you transport throughout london too - rail and bus.
  - iso1631 4y ago
    Nobody should be commuting from Manchester to London. That's £46.70 return, so £23.35 each way, arriving in London about 1030. Peak time london commuting is the most expensive part of the network to deliver, as it requires increased amount of capital that's mostly idle, yet peak time commuters get massive discounts compared with occasional use. Compare Reading to London. A season ticket works out to be about £22 return for 5 days a week, a normal peak time ticket is £52.10.
- gmac 4y ago
  > I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest I think you're citing pretty much a best case there. I just put in the same journey on a morning next week and got £150 each way, which I suspect is still not the worst case. Before the pandemic, my wife used to pay about £5K/year for a London - Brighton season ticket (a distance of about 50 miles). Possibly the most infuriating thing is that it's highly unpredictable what's cheap and what's expensive, and long journeys can often be several times the cost of flying. From a social-welfare/cost-of-carbon and oil-crisis perspective, this is nuts, especially when you compare what Germany is doing[1]. [1] https://e360.yale.edu/digest/germany-slashes-summer-train-fares-more-than-90-percent-to-curb-driving-save-fuel https://e360.yale.edu/digest/germany-slashes-summer-train-fa...
  - iso1631 4y ago
    £25 each way is a walk up fare, you just need to take the slightly slower train (which is still faster than the car and about the same speed it was in the 90s), arriving in London about 1030. Peak time commuting tickets are likewise a bargain. Brighton-London for £5,300 5 times a day 50 weeks a year at 65 miles each way is 32,500 miles, or 16p per mile. For a car doing 45mpg that will cost you £6,300 in fuel alone, let alone parking, depreciation, wear and tear, etc.
    - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
      The car will carry 4 people and luggage. So if you consider car pooling, or you need to be in office 3 times a week, it's not a good deal. Or your car is electric. Even for a couple, a car makes economic sence. Also consider comfort - have you see how crowded those trains get, sometimes you might have to stand for hours on a long distance train. If you are able bodied man thats one thing, but if you are pregnant or injured, that's tought. They are not suppose to be close.
      - iso1631 4y ago
        Sure, you could spend 3-4 hours driving from Brighton to central London and paying £65 to do it. It doesn't come close with season tickets, hence the reason so many people chose to commute by train rather than driving. Also why people take the train rather than commuter bus services which tend to be cheaper
vladharbuz 4y ago
As someone who has lived long-term in both countries, I think that while the Swiss system is absolutely better than the UK system, people in the UK are a bit _too_ self-deprecating about the UK rail system, which is, all things considered, relatively good. Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.
- CaptainZapp 4y ago
  > which is, all things considered, relatively good It really depends on the line and the company. Virgin from London to Manchester is a reasonably good experience. Anything Northern (as a for example) makes me fume when I even think of taking any of their trains. Also, prices for spontaneous bookings are outrageous. Even compared to Switzerland.
- martinald 4y ago
  It will be as of next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways.
  - vladharbuz 4y ago
    How did I miss this? Thank you for linking it, I'm very curious how things will turn out!
- iggldiggl 4y ago
  > Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey. Despite some shortcomings in that area, at least in the UK they did keep a common ticketing system with through-ticketing (and integral passenger rights for the whole of your journey) between operators even through the whole of the privatisation saga. In Germany they've mostly ignored that topic and we're mostly only saved by the fact most long distance trains are still operated by DB, and for international journeys it's equally bad, with often no through-tickets available.

midasuni 4y ago

I had a delay repay for the first time in years a few weeks ago - someone threw themselves under a train at Milton Keynes just before my train was due to leave Euston. I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest - http://brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt=SVR http://brfares.com/!faredetail?orig=MAN&dest=EUS&rte=371&tkt...

Zenst 4y ago
Shows as £46.70, which still isn't bad, though off-peak is often less painful. If you have to use the train to commute to work, then things start raking up. I live 15 miles outside London and 17 years ago was paying best part of £2k a year just to get into central london and back, today it would be the best part of £3k a year to make that same journey. Using the same tracks, (probably trains) and stations all those years ago. Though more people than back then, which was already at levels upon peak work commutes that saw you playing sardines.
- CaptainZapp 4y ago
  That almost gets you one year of travel in 2nd class throughout the entire Swiss train network (including public transport in cities).
  - midasuni 4y ago
    Switzerland has a population of less than london. £3k would get you transport throughout london too - rail and bus.
- iso1631 4y ago
  Nobody should be commuting from Manchester to London. That's £46.70 return, so £23.35 each way, arriving in London about 1030. Peak time london commuting is the most expensive part of the network to deliver, as it requires increased amount of capital that's mostly idle, yet peak time commuters get massive discounts compared with occasional use. Compare Reading to London. A season ticket works out to be about £22 return for 5 days a week, a normal peak time ticket is £52.10.
gmac 4y ago
> I don’t consider £25 each way Manchester-London to be brutally expensive to be honest I think you're citing pretty much a best case there. I just put in the same journey on a morning next week and got £150 each way, which I suspect is still not the worst case. Before the pandemic, my wife used to pay about £5K/year for a London - Brighton season ticket (a distance of about 50 miles). Possibly the most infuriating thing is that it's highly unpredictable what's cheap and what's expensive, and long journeys can often be several times the cost of flying. From a social-welfare/cost-of-carbon and oil-crisis perspective, this is nuts, especially when you compare what Germany is doing[1]. [1] https://e360.yale.edu/digest/germany-slashes-summer-train-fares-more-than-90-percent-to-curb-driving-save-fuel https://e360.yale.edu/digest/germany-slashes-summer-train-fa...
- iso1631 4y ago
  £25 each way is a walk up fare, you just need to take the slightly slower train (which is still faster than the car and about the same speed it was in the 90s), arriving in London about 1030. Peak time commuting tickets are likewise a bargain. Brighton-London for £5,300 5 times a day 50 weeks a year at 65 miles each way is 32,500 miles, or 16p per mile. For a car doing 45mpg that will cost you £6,300 in fuel alone, let alone parking, depreciation, wear and tear, etc.
  - ClumsyPilot 4y ago
    The car will carry 4 people and luggage. So if you consider car pooling, or you need to be in office 3 times a week, it's not a good deal. Or your car is electric. Even for a couple, a car makes economic sence. Also consider comfort - have you see how crowded those trains get, sometimes you might have to stand for hours on a long distance train. If you are able bodied man thats one thing, but if you are pregnant or injured, that's tought. They are not suppose to be close.
    - iso1631 4y ago
      Sure, you could spend 3-4 hours driving from Brighton to central London and paying £65 to do it. It doesn't come close with season tickets, hence the reason so many people chose to commute by train rather than driving. Also why people take the train rather than commuter bus services which tend to be cheaper

vladharbuz 4y ago

As someone who has lived long-term in both countries, I think that while the Swiss system is absolutely better than the UK system, people in the UK are a bit _too_ self-deprecating about the UK rail system, which is, all things considered, relatively good. Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey.

CaptainZapp 4y ago
> which is, all things considered, relatively good It really depends on the line and the company. Virgin from London to Manchester is a reasonably good experience. Anything Northern (as a for example) makes me fume when I even think of taking any of their trains. Also, prices for spontaneous bookings are outrageous. Even compared to Switzerland.
martinald 4y ago
It will be as of next year: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_British_Railways.
- vladharbuz 4y ago
  How did I miss this? Thank you for linking it, I'm very curious how things will turn out!
iggldiggl 4y ago
> Honestly, the biggest pain point in my eyes is that, because of privatisation, it's not all integrated into a single booking/refund/information system, which unfortunately does it make it _feel_ quite flakey. Despite some shortcomings in that area, at least in the UK they did keep a common ticketing system with through-ticketing (and integral passenger rights for the whole of your journey) between operators even through the whole of the privatisation saga. In Germany they've mostly ignored that topic and we're mostly only saved by the fact most long distance trains are still operated by DB, and for international journeys it's equally bad, with often no through-tickets available.