4 ms·

No. In fact, most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. Unfortunately, there is a degree to which antisemitism is disguis

by cs137 4y ago

No. In fact, most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. Unfortunately, there is a degree to which antisemitism is disguised behind disproportionate criticism of Israel and the Israeli people, and it's impossible to know, at an individual level, why people hold their opinions. Does Israel's government do awful things for questionable reasons (like most, if not all, national governments)? Yes. Is Israel the worst government in the Middle East? Far from it. To be honest, it's probably the least repressive, racist, or otherwise obnoxious government in the region (that's not setting a high bar). Israeli Arabs (especially women) have more freedoms in Israel than they would in any of the neighboring countries. Should Israel do better? Of course. It's absurd, though, that there's such a strong interest in BDS while the continuing consumption of Saudi oil goes unquestioned by most. Also: why is it that the behavior of Israel's government comes up in a discussion about memorializing people who were murdered before the state of Israel even existed? I have Irish (American) ancestry, but no one has ever asked me to answer for the Irish government (or connected me to it in any way, seeing as my Irish ancestors came over in the early 19th century). It's deeply weird that some people are so quick to connect anything having to do with Jews or Judaism with the conduct of one government in particular, which is thousands of miles away from where many Jews live.

edanm 4y ago
Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about the same things here, i.e. actions with regards to Palestinians, as opposed to all the other stuff happening in the country.)
- cs137 4y ago
  The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states that will (as Russia has done) create an external enemy and launch a war to distract their own people from domestic issues. The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region.
  - edanm 4y ago
    > The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. It's definitely close, but Wiki still gives it to Israel right now (at least here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Debate_over_United_States_numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#D...) > Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states [...] I tend to agree that that is what would happen, but I think the neighboring countries have at least a somewhat legitimate beef with Israel and its actions. It's largely promoted by leadership for reasons like you stated, but it is still true that lots of Arab (and Muslim) people think that Israel did something wrong. I mostly don't agree with their POV, but it has a legitimate basis. (And my disagreement is at least partly by saying "yeah, almost every country has a... problematic history, you can't just forever be at war with it for that".) > The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region. I wish that were true about the median (Jewish) Israeli. I don't know if that's right. For sure it's less a topic of conversation inside Israel than it is outside of it, so I agree with the idea that most Israelis don't think about it too much.
  - asib 4y ago
    Total aside, but I've not seen this use of the word "plurality" before - I'm reading it here as a synonym for "majority", which might be wrong of me! Is it colloquial to a certain group of English language speakers?
    - heartbeats 4y ago
      Plurality means the largest but non-majority group.

by cs137 4y ago

edanm 4y ago

Agree with most of your post, but did want to point out one thing: >[...] most Jews I know are intensely critical of Israel's policies and recent actions. While that certainly might be true wherever you live, note that the majority of the world's Jewish population lives in Israel, and at least some fairly large portion of that population does support Israel's policies and recent actions. (I assume we're talking about the same things here, i.e. actions with regards to Palestinians, as opposed to all the other stuff happening in the country.)

cs137 4y ago
The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. As for Israelis and support for their government, that is... complicated. Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states that will (as Russia has done) create an external enemy and launch a war to distract their own people from domestic issues. The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region.
- edanm 4y ago
  > The plurality of the Jewish population is believed to be in the US (there are some issues around estimation) although it's close. It's definitely close, but Wiki still gives it to Israel right now (at least here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#Debate_over_United_States_numbers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_population_by_country#D...) > Unfortunately, if the Israeli state didn't exist, hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Jewish people in the region would likely be murdered by people from neighboring countries. This isn't because Arabs are "innately" warlike or antisemitic (I don't think that's true) but because the states in the region are deeply corrupt, failing states [...] I tend to agree that that is what would happen, but I think the neighboring countries have at least a somewhat legitimate beef with Israel and its actions. It's largely promoted by leadership for reasons like you stated, but it is still true that lots of Arab (and Muslim) people think that Israel did something wrong. I mostly don't agree with their POV, but it has a legitimate basis. (And my disagreement is at least partly by saying "yeah, almost every country has a... problematic history, you can't just forever be at war with it for that".) > The Israeli state is deeply problematic, corrupted by capitalism and some amount of racism (as almost all Western states are). It also has a job that is tough as hell: protecting a vulnerable minority group from millions who would murder them. The middle-of-the-road Israeli understands the need to protect themselves, but isn't a huge fan of the settlements (if he thinks about them at all) and certainly would love to see peace in the region. I wish that were true about the median (Jewish) Israeli. I don't know if that's right. For sure it's less a topic of conversation inside Israel than it is outside of it, so I agree with the idea that most Israelis don't think about it too much.
- asib 4y ago
  Total aside, but I've not seen this use of the word "plurality" before - I'm reading it here as a synonym for "majority", which might be wrong of me! Is it colloquial to a certain group of English language speakers?
  - heartbeats 4y ago
    Plurality means the largest but non-majority group.